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Intertwined BS marking question

mrfarb

No War Eagles For You!
Staff member
So, I gather that people don't know exactly what the intertwined BS marking represents. It seems the two schools of thought are either Bahnschutz or Berlin-Spandau.

I picked one up recently, and have found an interesting link to 98k's reworked by Spandau during WW2 (with Su inspections). This one is a rework for sure, with a replacement stock., and is marked BS on the barrel shoulder and BS on the stock.

Has this been laid to rest, or is there still doubts? I'll post pics of it this weekend.
 
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Here are photos. If you note, the receiver has the number "88" stamped on the bottom. This number is also written on the stock and handguard. This is the same method Su reworked rifles use to keep barrel/stock sets together I presume during rework.

This one is all matched- it came from the Ambrose Selker collection at Amoskaeg. I'm very happy with it!

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No one knows with certainty- of course- but the topic has been well discussed over the years, and I think there is a good possibility the two variations of the markings are related.

There are two different BS marking styles; one is block letter "B.S." and its marked “usually” on top of the receiver, in a similar fashion as the "Zn" marking. The block B.S. is not accompanied by a date though. This marking can also be found on many things- unit marking discs and buttstock combs (rifles), pistol magazines and accessories. And when it is, sometimes it’s followed by numbers, as though it were a unit marking.

The intertwined "BS" is, much more problematic. It seems at first glance to be an organizational marking, located “usually” on the barrel shoulder or buttstock. It can be found on commercial pistols, machine pistols, and all manner of rifles, in all sorts of locations.

The problem is this intertwined “BS” is also found in the same location on top- and side of the receiver. I have several examples documented and they are identical to the block “B.S” examples, except in the style of the BS.

The foremost authority- imo- on such a topic is MarkW, and even he seems to be confounded on the topic. He once told me in an email that if the marking were on the receiver it probably represents work done at the depot at Berlin-Spandau, but if elsewhere its an organization marking. Very possibly Bahnschutz related.

Problem is, of course, is that both styles are seen on the receiver, and at least in a couple cases the same markings are found elsewhere on the stock (block B.S. on a marking disc, or underside of the buttstock comb, while the intertwined “BS” is usually as yours is.. though like the EWB brand with slight variation to location)

I certainly am not confident enough to question Mark’s assessment with what little data I have collected, however I tend to think this marking (both) is more likely related to the depot at Berlin-Spandau than to the Bahnschutz. Perhaps the marking style is related to different periods, or for different purposes (different work shops- one for “rework” the other for builds or maybe superficial “acceptance”? Many of the block B.S. seem much more worked over- though not always.)

Another glaring problem is the fact most of these rifles with the intertwined “B.S”, do not seem to have gone through much repair work- as you can see this action you have here is original. The barrel/receiver is 100% Danzig, as it left the arsenal. This fairly typical of this marked variation, but several have obviously been reworked- though possibly subsequent to the “BS” marking.

Anyway, - I do not think collectors have a firm grip on the purpose or meaning of this marking. Either of them!

Can you do more of the stocks acceptance markings? Cypher etc..

By the way, Ambrose wrote about this rifle, and another Kar.98a similarly marked in the June 1992 KCN.
 
To me, it seems odd that the Bahnshutz would mark the collar of the barrel like this as well. I could see stock markings being organziational.

It is coincidental that the marking is applied in the same manner as EWB markings, burned in the stock. I know though EWB markings are not applied to the metal. I'm not certain how much latitude the rail system was given in arming themselves during the Weimar period by the treaty of Versailles- might be a place to start.

Either way, this one was reworked at least twice during the Imperial or direct postwar era. The only stock marking I can find is a 1920 stamped on the left side and the serial number applied to the bottom. There are no cyphers on the right side below the marking disc, just the BS applied above it. It has an intersting stock repair near the magazine well. Here are some additional photos:

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At the SOS two years ago somebody had a mismatched C96 rig with EWB-branded stock holster and EWB stamped into the left side of the receiver.
In Wacker & Görtz, Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel, p.312 is illustrated an Amberg 1917 G98 with EWB stamped across the receiver above the crown.
The script BS is also found on 7,65 Ortgies pistols stamped on the left side of the slide; Selker had one in his collection and one is illustrated in Wacker & Görtz, op. cit., p. 310. So far as I know nobody has tabulated the Ortgies to see if they fall in a particular SN range, and the stamp has not been reported on other handguns or bayonets.
One of the problems with tracking railroad materiel is the multiplicity, succession and relationships of railroad organisations. Early on Heiges (who pulled off the deal) succeeded in getting the IMKK to approve 8,000 Kar 98As for the Bahnschutz; he describes the exercise with great glee in his book, Der Bahnschutz Ruft! They were marked REV.
So far as I know the the script BS is reported only on Kar 98As, G98Ms, and Ortgies pistols. That said, at the SOS last year somebody had a Kar 88 with the script BS branded into the right side of the butt; unfortunately Bubba had sanded and refinished the stock to the point where only about half the brand was visible.
 
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The Police were the most demanding issue the IAMCC faced, the goal was to limit the “national” police forces, but allow decentralized Police forces. The scrutiny being primarily on the centrally control organizations. (The fear being such a force would be a ready reserve for the Army- which is why the proponents of the DRP being used as a front to arming the ss and paramilitary groups is so absurd.. the DRP was itself the ready reserve, as the French feared.)

Of course, this was almost impossible to manage, and there was great resistance to most of the measures the IAMCC took. Usually, when the IAMCC was successful, a “new & improved” version took its place or they would change the name and superficial changes to the structure.

In the end, the Police issues were never fully resolved, - really the only big issue that would never be resolved completely.

It is coincidental that the marking is applied in the same manner as EWB markings, burned in the stock. I know though EWB markings are not applied to the metal. I'm not certain how much latitude the rail system was given in arming themselves during the Weimar period by the treaty of Versailles- might be a place to start.
 
West Point has a MP.18 with such a marking (attached image)

So far as I know the the script BS is reported only on Kar 98As, G98Ms, and Ortgies pistols. That said, at the SOS last year somebody had a Kar 88 with the script BS branded into the right side of the butt; unfortunately Bubba had sanded and refinished the stock to the point where only about half the brand was visible.
 

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By the way Mike, there are no markings at the wrist? Are markings just obscured by wear or do you think they never were applied?

On interwar reworks, salvages you do see sanding of stocks to a degree, but usually you can make out faint original markings.
 
By the way Mike, there are no markings at the wrist? Are markings just obscured by wear or do you think they never were applied?

On interwar reworks, salvages you do see sanding of stocks to a degree, but usually you can make out faint original markings.


Paul, no markings can be seen at the wrist. The stock actually looks like it was scraped before the BS markings were applied, presumably during some rework. An interesting subject to say the least.

Thanks WaPruf2, I have only seen EWB marked Gew98 rifles and none had EWB markings in the metal. I'll be the first to admit that WW1 and Weimar are secondary to my collecting, but recently I've really been "cramming for the exam" so to speak.
 
BS

My own opinion is that the BS denotes processing through Berlin Spandau but without
some corroborating documentation or a whole pile of period supporting evidence, that is what it will remain and likely the book will present as such - the authors opinions.

I will check with Jon and Lockhoven when he gets back from Suhl.

As for the Bahnschutz connection, I find that a stretch as most if not all of the railway associated police markings are found in conjuction with a weapon number. These include bayonets and rifles. In George Wheelers book there is a Kar98a stamped in similiar fashion
on the stock (REV - burned in).

My marking associations with any designations to rail police are: EX,DR,REV,SBR,RBD and
Bz. with all of these markings again associated with a weapon number with the exception of the REV burned in stamp on that Kar98a in Wheelers book.

So are we to assume that the primary contractor or converter for these guns was Berlin-Spandau with a very small number converted or built at Zeithain. Paul you mention in a footnote in
the May 2009 MRJ of the depot at Kassel. Was this facility involved in conversions or do we have any evidence supporting this?
 
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Looks like there are three varieties of BS.
1) Block letter
2) Block letter separated by a long dash dash: B.-- S. (see Maus, History Written In Steel, p. 326, for Erfurt Kar 98A 1916/1920 SN 4866kk; butt tang also marked S.B. (Schupo Berlin)
3) Intertwined script

Maus lists 2 Ortgies, SNs 1952xx and 201338 with the interwined BS and an MP18/1, no record of SN but photo attributed to Dietrich Jonke. Selker's Ortgies may have been SN 201099; he had another SN 69388 but that appears out of the general range for these to the extent a range is established.

Add to RR markings: D.R.G. (no.)
 
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I have never seen a "KS" marked rifle, but it’s been mentioned as one of the 3 HZa operating in the early interwar period by MarkW (B.S. or B-S, KS & Zn he lists specifically).

There is also a variation of this KS marking I have seen before- and Mark mentioned- an intertwined "BS" over "KS" on the barrel shoulder, and Mark has recorded an 1900 Erfurt with this marking on the shoulder AND branded in the stock ("KSBS" though). He said he couldn't interpret a meaning, and neither can I!

There is a 1918 MO, that "seems" to have a similar marking pattern- including a brand (BS/KS) but I am not certain if this is the same marking Mark alluded to? As the "KS" part is very muddled. I am not sure who owns the rifle or where it came from but I will attach some images anyway. (the barrel is original, not a re-barrel, also note the "Gz" depot marking).

In past forum discussions regarding HZa Kassel (it was a Imperial era AK/Army Korps District HQ), its been mentioned that Kassel used "Ka" "Kal" or "Kssl" in the nazi period. Of course this is irrelevant for the early interwar period.. but it should be mentioned. In the nazi period, they have been attributed to many things, but I have only seen pistols and a Kar98a with the “Ka” marking. (MG34/42 states MG08 and MG08/15 were sent there too)

Anyway, I rarely mention “KS” as I have never seen one so marked, but if the footnote you are referring to is in the Spandau Arsenal article, it should be mentioned that MarkW was the source.

So are we to assume that the primary contractor or converter for these guns was Berlin-Spandau with a very small number converted or built at Zeithain. Paul you mention in a footnote in
the May 2009 MRJ of the depot at Kassel. Was this facility involved in conversions or do we have any evidence supporting this?
 

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One Ortgies serial 2023xx was discussed on a forum in the past (want pics let me know and I will email them to you CB); also the MP.18 imaged is the same one you mention. Its at the West Point Museum and the picture was taken by DJ. (you can see the serial number if you look closely.)

He (DJ) took a couple pics of this MP, and passed them around to several interested parties a couple years back.


Looks like there are three varieties of BS.
1) Block letter
2) Block letter separated by a long dash dash: B.-- S. (see Maus, History Written In Steel, p. 326, for Erfurt Kar 98A 1916/1920 SN 4866kk; butt tang also marked S.B. (Schupo Berlin)
3) Intertwined script

Maus lists 2 Ortgies, SNs 1952xx and 201338 with the interwined BS and an MP18/1, no record of SN but photo attributed to Dietrich Jonke. Selker's Ortgies may have been SN 201099; he had another SN 69388 but that appears out of the general range for these to the extent a range is established.

Add to RR markings: D.R.G. (no.)
 
It seems to me the KS BS marked rifle cast some doubt on the association of BS to the Bahnshutz? Only in that the markings are identical style and placement. I also like Bruce's point about the police guns usually having a weapon number associated with them. I suppose this is one of those cases where people usually don't report enough information to make a determination.
 
Isn't that the truth… many questions could be answered if enough rifles were reliably and clearly reported- or reported at all!

We have far to small a foundation with which to interpret much beyond a vague outline of possibilities. Much of which is based upon the writings of MarkW, who has touched on this subject far more than any other over the years.

I suppose this is one of those cases where people usually don't report enough information to make a determination.
 
Timely discussion

Great on topic stuff guys - especially as I will start the chapter on 98Ms next month.
Thanks!
 
Care to elaborate?

While anything is possible, it seems unlikely this is a non-German applied marking.

I think the possibility needs to be factored into considerations, as unlikely as it may seem. Likewise the possibility that it is a commercial mark of some sort.
 
Talking points

Both CB and PS make valid points. From a publishing standpoint, we certainly don't want
to present biased data (aka just my opinion) but would prefer to present a more balanced view based on consensus where no factual or historical record is available.

I for one will consider all arguments and points of view - especially given the "cloudy" nature of the actual designation of the 'BS' stamp and possibly other markings as well.

Thats one of the reasons Mike set this forum up is for open discussion and debate on topics at hand. Now back to the subject. I would guess that without some period documentation, any clear association with Berlin Spandau other than the obvious can be a tough call and clearly will remain open for conjecture, although given all the data and known examples, I would still defer to the association of the BS marking with Berlin Spandau.

I know for one example that I owned years ago can "bag or box cut" indicating a return by a veteran. While not nailing down any association, it does confirm that the gun came from "in theater".

You guys keep hammering away and we will present whatever falls out in a reasonable fashion.
 

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