Odd serial on a S28?

Valuable S28?

A friend of mine told me about his new Mauser rifle, and he stated that it has S28 markings.

The rifle serial is 8200a. All matching except the bolt.
It has a 1920 mark on top of receiver, and nothing else.
No marking on the left side of receiver (only the # and an imperial eagle)
Three crowned ovals on right side of the receiver.

I don't know exactly where to place the S28 Kar98b... before the "Simson & Co" dated guns, or after..? Before or after "Gew.98" marked 98b's..?


Oooohh, it's so complicated... but, so interesting

Francois

The later S28 guns (late a block onwards) are '1920' marked as you describe to hide their date of production. See Karabiner 98k pages 96-98.

Post some pictures if possible.

Hi RyanE
No pictures to post by now. Surely later, as soon as my friend will send some to me.

What does mean exactly S28? And if known, how many S28 rifles have been produced?
What year has been produced this 8200a S28 rifle?

Thank you
Francois

oxi81 said:

Hi RyanE
No pictures to post by now. Surely later, as soon as my friend will send some to me.

What does mean exactly S28? And if known, how many S28 rifles have been produced?
What year has been produced this 8200a S28 rifle?

Thank you
Francois

Click to expand...

No one is really sure, but it is believed that these were made/assembled by Berlin-Karlsruher (formerly DWM). Assembly probably dates to the late 20s, but again no one is certain.

So, the S28 rifles would be a separate serie from the Simson production?

If the assembly dates to the late 20s, how can we explain the use of imperial eagle marks instead of the Weimar eagles?
Maybe a production based on an old stock of DWM WW1 parts? But in this case, why do the receiver lack the "Gew.98" marking?


A S28 left side receiver picture found on the forum.

If the goal was to confuse the IAMCC, it's a total success : the confusion still continues nowadays

Francois

They are not Simson made, they are made from leftover Oberspree parts and have acceptance patterns used on 1918-1919 date Oberspree rifles. It is believed that DWM stopped making rifles in early 1918, to focus on the MG08 and P08, moving its rifle production to Oberspree (DWM fully owned the firm by then) and when the end of the war came and the IAMCC became established (mostly in Berlin, a rather small organization considering the task of supervising the demilitarization of the second largest industrial power in the world, few know this but the Germans had counterparts who worked with the IAMCC and they did much of the actual work-supervision), Oberspree hid the components and partial rifle. Later they were moved to Karlsruhe (S28) and believed assembled in the late 1920's, probably after 1927.

One would guess that they have Imperial style BC, FP and acceptance because they were partially completed rifles, but it isn't known for sure... we do know that the FP question leaves some questions that can't be answered at the moment, - the S28 have the FP on the barrel next to the serial, this is not an Imperial trait, it first shows up on Simson 98b production late in 1925, depot builds (Zn) have the barrel FP next to the serial in 1926, but the 1924 dated rifles are unknown to this feature (all are re-placed barrels or do not show the barrel serial-FP, and no 1925 are known yet...), BUT the only well documented-original Oberspree/1919 (and the Oberspree/1918 in V1) has the FP next to the barrel serial, and the same acceptance pattern, but whether it was made in 1919 or after 1927 is not known, but it has the characteristics S28's do.

I would have to look at what Mike sent me to know if Bruce and Jon or Mike found any actual documents to prove this speculation, from recollection there was some information found, but details escape me at the moment, - the only facts are that these are not Simson made (though Simson components can be found on them) and that the acceptance pattern resembles Oberspree pattern in 1918-1919.

I should point out that "normal" Oberspree/1918 rifles do not share these no-suffix 1918-1919 dated Oberspree marked rifles acceptance pattern. It is very probable that these few rifles (6 are known, but only two well imaged and original-matching) with no-suffix were made much later, from leftover parts or partially completed rifles.

Oberspree serial ranges did not roll over from 1917 to 1918, they continued with the suffix they left off with in 1917 into 1918, n-o blocks with some overlap. It is almost for sure that these no-suffix rifles dated 1918 & 1919 were made later, possibly in 1919, but no way to tell, - the only clue they were made much later than 1919 is the FP, though they are blued, but that could have been done later as it usually was at depots (rare to find a interwar rifle not blued), - the manner of serialing (last two), parts, acceptance style all suggest Imperial patterns.

Thank you again Loewe for your clear explanation.

Here are some pics of this #8200a S28 rifle.





Any idea about the Reichwehr regimental marking on the stock disk?

This rifle is -maybe- back from Spain (as an actor of the Franco/Republican 1936 war?), as it had a spanish bayonet adaptor slipped on the original bayo lug.

Francois

We didn't find any concrete evidence as to where these were made, but lots of clues (especially the S28 marking) and large transfers of parts from DWM to Mauser in the early 30's. We found evidence of the aftermath I think - remember that Mauser got all of the P.08 components and built pistols from them, eventually making new pistols-- this seems to indicate that DWM was getting out of the firearms making business, so would make a great time to dump everything. DWM and Mauser were both under the Quandt group, and Mauser used S28 marked parts on Banners in the mid to late 30's, but there was NO evidence that Mauser made rifles. To me, the reason for the Imperial firing proof was probably one of convenience, they had the thing on hand and there was no regulation against using it- I'm not sure there was an official style of firing proof in the late 20's and early 30's- the Simson firing proof is somewhat similar? I think the biggest clue to the timeframe is the location of the firing proofs, as pointed out to me by Loewe during my research on them.

oxi81 said:

Any idea about the Reichwehr regimental marking on the stock disk?

This rifle is -maybe- back from Spain (as an actor of the Franco/Republican 1936 war?), as it had a spanish bayonet adaptor slipped on the original bayo lug.

Francois

Click to expand...

The unit stamp might be: Ausbildungs-Eskadron (training squadron) Reiter Regiment 7 (cavalry regiment 7)
In 1921 the 5th squadron was renamed into training squadron.

Thank you all for your skilful informations you're the best

Francois

Thanks Francois, have you pictures of the acceptance pattern on the wrist and the lower buttstock? I am curious as to whether this is the original stock?

The other well documented S28 (1506 a) that KenL (heavy) discovered several years ago was unit marked 1./R.R.3.160, that stock had Imperial style markings on the RS and S28 style acceptance (typical of the RR) on the stock in general, it was clearly the original S28 stock.

I am not sure what rifle Mike used in V1, maybe 9848 which has different stock markings than 1506 a, but S28's with original stocks are rare, several show stock markings like yours and 9848, but do not show enough to know if they are original, LarryR sold one with a stock much like yours and 9848 some years ago, but he was scanty on pictures, which makes me think it didn't match. I think there are a couple others than might match, but maybe not "original" like KenL example. It might be the only one with its “factory original” stock, but there are not enough well documented rifles to know whether all were “original” like 1506 a (it is unquestionably S28 with those markings) or if some were marked differently.

By now, the only other -and bad- picture of the shoulder stock that I have on hand, is this one :

Matching serial #8200 in the stock groove.
The rifle owner told me that the upper handguard isn't serialed, nor the cleaning rod.

I hope it helps.

Francois

Thanks, certainly better than what we had before, at least we know the stock is period.