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View Full Version : Double secret Gestapo SS pistol



Hambone
11-07-2010, 02:35 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=199221039

mrfarb
11-07-2010, 03:02 PM
That's tight. I'm surprised they didn't make hundreds of them for super secret SS death squads.

Peter U
11-07-2010, 04:17 PM
It isn't a secret anymore now!:facepalm:

P

pzjgr
11-07-2010, 04:32 PM
#1 It took a little imagination and skill to build that contraption....

#2 If anyone would be dumb enough to try it, they better wear it high up...wouldn't want it recoiling into the family jewels!

The imgaination of some of these guys is pretty good...

And it could be yours for a mere 6K!

johnmac
11-07-2010, 11:07 PM
Unfortunately i have hand inspected two of these. Both that I held had heer eagles on them and no ss marks at all. both that I held were identical in mechanics. One was pretty beat up but the other was not. The owner claimed the he got it from a vet.,had a pile of.paperwork for his provedance.... Said he didnt want to sell it but would take 18k for it.......Ill probably see him on wed at the HGCA meeting. Ill try and get a few pics for you guys if he has it in his bag of goodies.

Hambone
11-07-2010, 11:52 PM
The double secret Enigma wing of the SS Fallschirmjager Gestapo discovered that if you put this on backwards and sat down hard the thing would discharge all barrels at once directly into the wearer's groin. Several dinner party events like this caused a complete redesign of the weapon system, and its subsequent abandonment in favor of funding for the V-3 1/2 SBU (Schnitzel Bomb Unit) program designed to be used on US troops in November before the Ardennes campaign. Abwehr spies in America noted the US custom of over-eating at Thanksgiving and falling asleep, which trait the V-3 1/2 would have exploited by releasing millions of these SBUs over concentrated US troops. I happen to have access to original SBUs (shown below) from this historic Nazi triple secret weapon system which I am selling for $75 per unit, all bearing the proper WaA inspection and consecutively serial numbers if you purchase multiples, which is far less than the buckle gun, more useful with crackers, and with greater investment potential. Note that the pic below is of them not packed in the delivery cannister, which was designed to open at about 100 feet, spraying the SBUs.

http://blogs.chron.com/cookstour/archives/viennasausages.jpg

Obendorf98
11-08-2010, 05:20 AM
:rofl: Secret Gestapo pistols indeed. I bet next there will be underwear equiped with a single shot pistol for high ranking nazi officials. You know, just in case if anyone wants to assasinate them in bed.

johnmac
11-08-2010, 11:48 AM
Ha ha... Well Hambone has it figured out!

Serious question.... Besides the one here, the two that,i have held, and the one that was sold at RIA. Do you guys believe that any of these were actuall produced by the Nazi's? I personally have no idea, however considering the broad scope of all of the experimental rigamarole that they came off with, its not that far fetched. I have often wondered about these after holding two of them. Upon inspection they both looked pretty damn convincing...

Hopefully i'll be able to get a load of photo's on wed at the gun club meeting.

Whats the general consensus in these?

RyanE
11-08-2010, 12:18 PM
Do you guys believe that any of these were actuall produced by the Nazi's?

I cannot think of one practical use for such a stupid contraption. So, no I don't.

Hambone
11-08-2010, 01:20 PM
Well, it does have SS runes on it. That's enough for some folks right there.

Peter U
11-08-2010, 01:22 PM
Well, it does have SS runes on it. That's enough for some folks right there.

Then it is original:moon:

P

johnmac
11-08-2010, 01:26 PM
No practical purpose huh? Well if I was a nazi prisoner attempting escape, 4 shots could come in real handy.

Hambone
11-08-2010, 05:14 PM
No practical purpose huh? Well if I was a nazi prisoner attempting escape, 4 shots could come in real handy.

I reckon the double secret SS gestapo belt buckle wearer would simply point his pelvis at his intended victims and do some air humping and spraying of belt buckle bullets. I'm sure they would be so surprised that they would forget to cut him down with Thompsons or PPShs. Would the souveniring GIs or Soviets would let him keep that big honking Nazi rodeo buckle (if the latter even took him prisoner)? A big Nazi rodeo belt buckle gun is much more a surprise than say, an M.39 egg grenade or a Walter PP.

I think having a pocket full of Nazi SBUs would be more valuable as a bribe to escape, particularly for the guard dogs. However, I know for a historical fact (same sources as the auction info) that MI 5, 6, and 9 and the OSS and FBI got wind of the triple secret V- 3 1/2 SBU programme and began training dogs to be impervious to the temptation of Nazi meat missiles. I have an actual photograph of one of these specialized war dogs (see below), which I will autograph and provide for only $15 extra to every purchaser of a consecutive numbered set of waffenamted SBUs.

http://www.bookofjoe.com/images/2008/09/08/sausage.jpg

johnmac
11-08-2010, 06:19 PM
Ha ha ha! Poor puppy... He is trained very well.... Look at his eyes.... My girlfriend just laughed at that photo and said thats the same expression I have everytime she gets out of the shower:thumbsup:

sssniper
11-18-2010, 07:22 PM
Hate to break this to you, but these have been known for 40 or 50+ years (I have seen several in collections, and for sale in the past), and they are pictured in many older books. Does that make them real Nazi era, of course not. But it is nothing new. Looks pretty nicely made, but of course any good machinest could put one together in a short time (with at least a good picture). IO will probably have them in their next catolog! Just my 2 cents. Skid

Hambone
11-19-2010, 10:45 AM
Hate to break this to you, but these have been known for 40 or 50+ years (I have seen several in collections, and for sale in the past), and they are pictured in many older books. Does that make them real Nazi era, of course not. But it is nothing new. Looks pretty nicely made, but of course any good machinest could put one together in a short time (with at least a good picture). IO will probably have them in their next catolog! Just my 2 cents. Skid

Skid good background info, but need to hate breaking the news, many of us have known this as long as we've been in collecting, as you have. Folks that knew better found them humorous then and I don't think that the passage of time has made them any more serious :laugh: Good background though and thanks for noting

gew98
11-23-2010, 12:12 PM
Wait a minute... no XRF raygun COA and the deals off !.



I reckon the double secret SS gestapo belt buckle wearer would simply point his pelvis at his intended victims and do some air humping and spraying of belt buckle bullets. I'm sure they would be so surprised that they would forget to cut him down with Thompsons or PPShs. Would the souveniring GIs or Soviets would let him keep that big honking Nazi rodeo buckle (if the latter even took him prisoner)? A big Nazi rodeo belt buckle gun is much more a surprise than say, an M.39 egg grenade or a Walter PP.

I think having a pocket full of Nazi SBUs would be more valuable as a bribe to escape, particularly for the guard dogs. However, I know for a historical fact (same sources as the auction info) that MI 5, 6, and 9 and the OSS and FBI got wind of the triple secret V- 3 1/2 SBU programme and began training dogs to be impervious to the temptation of Nazi meat missiles. I have an actual photograph of one of these specialized war dogs (see below), which I will autograph and provide for only $15 extra to every purchaser of a consecutive numbered set of waffenamted SBUs.

http://www.bookofjoe.com/images/2008/09/08/sausage.jpg

jhv 41
05-15-2013, 08:16 AM
One of these "double secret pelvis guns" sold for over $20K at auction last June. Not sure how many are real or fakes are out there and the collectability as a bona fide war relic can be debated.

But 20 grand? :facepalm:



http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/06/07/rare-nazi-belt-buckle-pistol-chambered-in-22-lr/

mrfarb
05-15-2013, 08:22 AM
Moronic. "Too complicated and expensive to fake", that's laughable.

denny gaither
05-15-2013, 05:02 PM
Here is a scan from the 4th edition of W.H.B. Smith's Small Arms of the World, printed in 1953. I have no comments to add other than this was my first exposure to this type of weapon.

http://www.k98kforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51668&stc=1&d=1368651734

Hambone
05-18-2013, 06:45 PM
So it's either real or the product of an imaginative gunsmith. Someone with decent machine skills and firearms knowledge could make this. Thanks Denny. Given that it existed in 1953, what say y'all now? I'm still not convinced, but it's more convincing. Is it the same one bouncing around?

RyanE
05-18-2013, 08:22 PM
So it's either real or the product of an imaginative gunsmith. Someone with decent machine skills and firearms knowledge could make this. Thanks Denny. Given that it existed in 1953, what say y'all now? I'm still not convinced, but it's more convincing. Is it the same one bouncing around?

I don't think there is any question that they are all post war fantasies. There are several of these floating around including at least one in 9mm with a Luftwaffe eagle. The engraved one has fake WaA865 stamped on it in several places, BLN-44-SS (of course), and the fake nazi eagle was mounted on top of an engraved eagle, so it has clearly been added later to "enhance" the piece. The idiot posted on GB that he traded a Luftwaffe Drilling for it. Gott im Himmel. :facepalm:

Do a Google Image search for "nazi belt buckle gun" and you will see several variations.

I'm guessing the one in the book is the same one once owned by Alabama Governor Gordon Persons: http://www.icollector.com/Rare-and-Unique-Nazi-Eagle-Belt-Buckle-Multi-Shot-Pistol_i9387029

denny gaither
05-19-2013, 11:57 AM
I'm guessing the one in the book is the same one once owned by Alabama Governor Gordon Persons:

http://www.k98kforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51820&stc=1&d=1368978992

jhv 41
05-19-2013, 12:54 PM
Maybe we leave it at either:

1) there are maybe 1 or 2 that are real and "holy grail" rare

2) most are the product of some sharp post war profiteers/gunsmith's

3) they were made by the same guy who crafted Sex Machine's groin gun in From Dusk to Dawn

gebirgsjager
05-28-2013, 08:51 PM
It is my understanding the guy with the "pecker-pistol" was in the 82nd Airborne Div. at one time. Just not WW2. And I have actually handled one of those buckle pistols. WOW! What craftmanship.

jhv 41
05-30-2013, 08:08 AM
Now I am really perplexed - I'd love to hear forum member feedback as to why would the National Firearms Museum have one of these if they were truly faked? This one has two barrels versus the ones previously posted with four chambers.

The Museum quote:

"One of the great weapons rarities of World War II, this covert "belt buckle" pistol has a dropping front plate that exposes two twin pistol barrels ready to be fired. It is complete with original issue cardboard box"

This link shows some really excellent pics of the one they have in their collection:

http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/robert-e-petersen-gallery/german-guns/marquis-nazi-belt-buckle-pistol.aspx

Hambone
05-30-2013, 10:40 AM
Thanks jhv. That one in the Nat. Firearms Museum looks to me like the real period item, manufactured by a custom gun maker for a party official, who knows. It definitely was not an "issue" item. There were gun collectors and firearms enthusiasts among pre-1945 Nazis as well. One of them, a rich one, had this made. Comparing quality of this piece to the others, my belief is the later ones were cheap postwar knockoffs of an exotic one off Nazi item. Back then "spy" shows and such were hugely popular ("Get Smart", the early Bond films, etc.). So, it makes sense that some coots with gunsmithing and machining abilities would make these based upon the one displayed at the NFM.

So, my take on it: The NFM pistol is a one of, custom made, period Nazi German piece. Those that follow are postwar fakes.

RyanE
05-30-2013, 11:23 AM
Now I am really perplexed - I'd love to hear forum member feedback as to why would the National Firearms Museum have one of these if they were truly faked? This one has two barrels versus the ones previously posted with four chambers.

The Museum quote:

"One of the great weapons rarities of World War II, this covert "belt buckle" pistol has a dropping front plate that exposes two twin pistol barrels ready to be fired. It is complete with original issue cardboard box"

This link shows some really excellent pics of the one they have in their collection:

http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/robert-e-petersen-gallery/german-guns/marquis-nazi-belt-buckle-pistol.aspx

Museums are not necessarily authorities on what they display. I'm pretty sure the NRA museum has a fake ZF41 on display, and one of their "experts" recently blessed a laughably fake K98k sniper at one of the big shows (SHOT?) a while back.

I'd bet there are more than a few fakes in the rest of the collection as well.

JoeW
05-30-2013, 03:45 PM
The interesting thing is that Louis Marquis Jr. from Wuppertal/Elberfeld was indeed granted a patent for a buckle gun in January 1935. But it was described as a "Trommelrevolver Koppelschloss" and included drawings of the device are quite clear. That is "Cylinder-Revolver buckle" in English. And he filed a patent for a similar buckle in the US in May 1934. Not a pop-out two shot or four shot creation with SS eagle like those marketed on auctions and such. So it appears to me that the box may be legitimate, but the buckle itself is bogus. This was all discussed in the December 1972 issue of "Waffen Revue" , including copies of the patents, beginning appearance of advertisements of the fake SS buckles in the 1960s and actual offerings of examples of the "original" Marquis revolver buckle-gun offered by his widow.

mjn
05-30-2013, 04:48 PM
Copy of 1934 patent drawing for the original buckle-gun as mentioned by JoeW above.

Hambone
05-30-2013, 06:19 PM
My response was going to be the same as Ryan's re museums; most all of them have flagrantly honked up stuff and misdescriptions. However, I looked at that pistol and the box and it looked very good to me, much different than the others.

Sarge
06-04-2013, 05:03 AM
These buckle pistols are known in 4 variations - 1, 2, 3 u. 4 bbls. Seems like also in 2 calibers - 25 u. 32 auto. They also came in 2 variants - the buckle face opened to the side or folded down.
I have only seen a 4 bbl variant. It was extremely well made and very heavy.
I tend to believe that they are original private purchase items as opposed to being issued, thus No WaA.
I have never heard of a Luftwaffe variant or one in 9mm.
Sarge