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BSW 1937
12-07-2010, 10:36 AM
Hi all,

What kind of scope could match a BYF 43 with a Low Turret mount?
Thank you in advance.

Dave Roberts
12-08-2010, 05:05 PM
Hi all,

What kind of scope could match a BYF 43 with a Low Turret mount?
Thank you in advance.
You could Use Ajack 4X90 , Zeiss Zielsechs 6X or Zielvier 4X , BMJ . Kahles H/4X60 , Ziel Dialyt 6X , Ziejadg 4X , Lovec , Ziess blc Coded 4X , Dr Walter Gerard . Hope this Helps .
The first 3 mentioned would be easiest to find and the Zeiss would be least Expensive .

BSW 1937
12-09-2010, 01:45 AM
Thank you.

I think I will try to find a nice Zielsechs then. How do you recognize a military one?

Dave Roberts
12-10-2010, 01:43 AM
Thank you.

I think I will try to find a nice Zielsechs then. How do you recognize a military one?

By the Serial No# is one way the other may have Meter Dial on it or A Triangle or Plus just above the Zeiss Logo but do not trust that alone . Just Buy a Commercial and have Robert Spielauer make it into Replica Robert has Dials and can engrave a Triangle or + .

BSW 1937
12-13-2010, 02:10 AM
Thank you.

I will certainly go this way.

BSW 1937
02-02-2011, 03:33 AM
Is the Zielsechs serial number 66855 a correct choice for such a project?
The scope is in good condition. This is a commercial scope, of course.

Dave Roberts
02-02-2011, 08:21 PM
I am sure this is to late a Ser# Range for LT is OK for HT
I can try to find out for You what Ser# would be Correct for LT .

BSW 1937
02-03-2011, 02:55 AM
Thank you Dave.

My "project" is to build a late LT based on a BYF 43 e suffix letter. In this configuration, I "think" this scope will be OK.

But I'm interested to have a correct serial number range for both LT and HT. :thumbsup:

By the way, how did the Zeiss scope serial numbering system work and is there a document somewhere on the net that can be used to estimate the production date of such a scope?

Dave Roberts
02-04-2011, 01:13 AM
No Document anywhere I am aware of but Vaughn99 can help You with Your Question at least I think he would if you ask him . Best Regards

BSW 1937
02-15-2011, 03:33 AM
The Zielsechs is now at home. I just need a graduated elevation ring and four screws for the bases of the mount now.

Does anybody have pictures of a military zielsechs elevation ring?

Dave Roberts
02-15-2011, 03:49 PM
This is from my LSR with Zeilsech`s Notice at 800 meter mark just a bit beyonds on the outer edge there is a Stop Screw . You can get a Dial & Screws from Robert Spielauer .He can also make and install the Screw for You .Hope Pics help . Best Regards

BSW 1937
02-16-2011, 05:55 AM
I have not noticed this stop screw on the dial previously but I have found pictures of another Zielsechs from a LSR with it.

It seems older Zielsechs, with a cross instead of a triangle and no recoil ring have not this stop screw on the dial, but have two others marks, above 8, without numbers.
Is this correct?

Dave Roberts
02-16-2011, 07:29 PM
I have not noticed this stop screw on the dial previously but I have found pictures of another Zielsechs from a LSR with it.

It seems older Zielsechs, with a cross instead of a triangle and no recoil ring have not this stop screw on the dial, but have two others marks, above 8, without numbers.
Is this correct?

I just can not say about this Dial . I know Robert Spielauer has his Pictured in his Book . Its a Zielsechs with LT Rings has + and Dial had Stop Screw like mine . One thing different from Mine & Robert`s Compared to the one You show in Pic is the Dial on Your Pic the Scope Meter No#1 is not the same . Best Regards

vaughn99
02-24-2011, 12:23 AM
Zielsechs 66,000 is 1938-39 range.

later
vaughn

BSW 1937
02-24-2011, 03:11 AM
:hail: Vaughn!

BSW 1937
03-30-2011, 09:48 AM
The Zielsechs is now at home. I just need a graduated elevation ring and four screws for the bases of the mount now.


If you know where to find the screws and the ring, please send me a PM.
I need these parts to complete my project.

BSW 1937
12-16-2011, 08:02 AM
Just a quick update.

I have found the screws, the ring is modified and my project will be finished soon. I would like to thank the people who have helped me.

Now I really look forward having my toy back from the gunsmith and trying it at the range.

By the way, do you know if levels bubble existed around WWII and do you know any that will fit a Zeiss Zielsechs (26.5mm diameter body)?
I haven't find the answer to this question so far.

C.P.Goerz
12-16-2011, 09:55 AM
any of the Zeiss Zielvier or Zielsechs are fine to use with the low turret mount.
Zeiss halted the manufacture of the telescopes in probably mid 1940.one of the highest commercially marked Zielvier serial numbers in my data is over 82,000.it has a prewar retailer mark engraved on the tube.also there are other model serial numbers mixed up in with the late Zielvier and Zielsechs and the dural scopes are also mixed in with these scopes.there was just one serial number block for the Zeiss scopes made between 1920 and 1945 with the commercial logo.therewere 11 models of Zeiss scopes made in the late 1930s.the triangle marked Zeiss Zielvier and Zielsechs scopes that show up in 1944 were some of the scopes or scope parts that were likely stored in the Zeiss factory in 1940 then converted to sniper use in 1944.the triangle marked Zielvier were used with the bnz single claw mount K98.the triangle marked Zielsechs were made to be used with the bcd4 LSR mount K98.

vintagescope
12-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Some mistake ....
On BYF43 Low Turret , only 3 sniper scope model : Ajack , BMJ and some very very rare BLC Zeiss Zielvier .
Many important difference on scope and mounts between mid 1943 production and late 1943 production .
BLC is for late 1943 Low Turret BYF 98K .
All another Low Turret scope is for 1940 Low Turret rifle ! Another story 3 years before ...

vaughn99
12-22-2011, 11:14 PM
Hello,

I have heard for some YEARS now of these 82,000+ zeiss scopes. with all the info I have collected the tail end of the zeiss production were not scopes but a Nedinsco contract of Flak scopes using the code JUX and using the zeiss serial blocks of 82,351-82,881 from serial observations. my highest Zeiss Zielvier is 81476. the contract was for 3000 Flak parts to be made, serialed but assembled in Nedinsco under the JUX wartime code. any one else have this info and JUX flak scope serials they can share?? I have shared some great zeiss info but would like to see these 82,000 serial Zeiss Zielviers that several collectors seem to have!!!??? with the 3K contract lets say starting at 81500 would be about 500 SHORT of the post war start of serial 85,000. that could mean that serial 82,000 exactly could be a zeiss scope but would like to see others info also. I shared everything i have!!

from 1936-1940 zeiss made only 7-9 at most different models and that's if you include the added windage option. there were no 11 models that I can find, would like to see the other models they produced. I have catalogs from the zeiss company from 1935-1939 with 1940 being a 1939 catalog with 1940 updated price sheet which tells me they never made a 1940 catalog. seen the same thing for my hensoldt catalogs the 1937 and 1938 with 38 price sheet. have another 1938 catalog with a 1940 updated price sheet.

later
Vaughn

Dave Roberts
12-23-2011, 03:11 AM
Some mistake ....
On BYF43 Low Turret , only 3 sniper scope model : Ajack , BMJ and some very very rare BLC Zeiss Zielvier .
Many important difference on scope and mounts between mid 1943 production and late 1943 production .
BLC is for late 1943 Low Turret BYF 98K .
All another Low Turret scope is for 1940 Low Turret rifle ! Another story 3 years before ...

Have to disagree with your assumptions on scopes used . When is the Handbook for Karabiner 98 k mit handelsublichen Zielfernrohr dated 23. 2. 43. How many scope types excepted for use listed in this handbook Heliavier , Zielvier , Ziel-Dialyt 6fach , Ajack 4fach , Zieljagd 4fach , zielsechs . The Two Snipers shown in handbook shows Low Turret with Heliavier and SSR with Zielvier . The call for these scopes went out in 1943 to Hunters to turn then in . Owner would be Paid for their scopes . This tells what Scopes could be used and type of Sniper Rifles these Scopes would be used with .Best Regards
:thumbsup:

vintagescope
12-23-2011, 08:51 AM
I'm sorry Dave, but they are not suppositions, they are certainties!

I am one of very few owner of the original manual and have been for many years when I started collecting German sniper scopes ...

I must say that the content of this book surprised me at the beginning and led to a significant reflection...

Firstly this book is dated 02/23/1943!!

For those who do not collect sniper rifles, this date is insignificant but for the advanced collector who is interested in the dates of manufacture of guns is very interesting!

The first sniper rifles Low Turret of the second manufacturing at Oberndorf plant appear in August 1943, not before !

There are no known currently 98K Low Turret with a letter before the letter G !!!

A collector in Germany has one with his telescope in number, the first ever BMJ manufacturing, and I have one too, but the scope is not the number, Ajack first model.
G .Sturgess in Switzerland own one with matching scope in H letter, a Ajack very first model without sunshine .

Or 6 months after completion of the manual!

As in the books of G41, G43 or MP44, they are photographs or drawings of prototypes that were used for the realization!
These manuals are very very interesting but should not be interpreted as a "bible"!The glasses described in this manual are not photographed, they are drawn!

And in fact, they do not correspond to anything! they are simply projects that will not be realized.

I said and I repeat, only two brands of glasses will be used to end 1943 Oberndorf: Ajack and Hensoldt (BMJ).

Some very very rare BLC Zeiss will be mounted but anecdotally!

There has never been Heliavier , Ziel Dialyt , Zieljagd or Zielsechs Low Turret mounted in 1943, is a certainty.

These glasses may have been erected in 1940 on Low Turret guns of the first manufacturing but not in 1943!

I found to my collection of ten and BMJ or Ajack first type, and I never found anything else with Low Turret assembly of 1943 ....

Again, I do not mean the production of 1940 but that of 1943!

For me, the mass is said!

BSW 1937
12-23-2011, 09:35 AM
Thank you gentlemen for this information.

Vintagescope, I'm sure your conclusions apply only to Mauser Oberndorf factory made rifles, right?
What about rifles converted after they have left the factory?

vintagescope
12-23-2011, 09:46 AM
Hello BSW
There are no rifle converted after they have left the factory ....
No ZF39 .... No ZF41 .....
A sniper rifle is always a "factory" rifle, or "converted" by armorer only for Polzei or SS Scharfschützen Gewehr .
Xavier on this forum is owner Standart Model "converted" sniper rifle for exemple .

Dave Roberts
12-23-2011, 06:03 PM
I'm sorry Dave, but they are not suppositions, they are certainties!

I am one of very few owner of the original manual and have been for many years when I started collecting German sniper scopes ...

I must say that the content of this book surprised me at the beginning and led to a significant reflection...

Firstly this book is dated 02/23/1943!!

For those who do not collect sniper rifles, this date is insignificant but for the advanced collector who is interested in the dates of manufacture of guns is very interesting!

The first sniper rifles Low Turret of the second manufacturing at Oberndorf plant appear in August 1943, not before !

There are no known currently 98K Low Turret with a letter before the letter G !!!

A collector in Germany has one with his telescope in number, the first ever BMJ manufacturing, and I have one too, but the scope is not the number, Ajack first model.
G .Sturgess in Switzerland own one with matching scope in H letter, a Ajack very first model without sunshine .

Or 6 months after completion of the manual!

As in the books of G41, G43 or MP44, they are photographs or drawings of prototypes that were used for the realization!
These manuals are very very interesting but should not be interpreted as a "bible"!The glasses described in this manual are not photographed, they are drawn!

And in fact, they do not correspond to anything! they are simply projects that will not be realized.

I said and I repeat, only two brands of glasses will be used to end 1943 Oberndorf: Ajack and Hensoldt (BMJ).

Some very very rare BLC Zeiss will be mounted but anecdotally!

There has never been Heliavier , Ziel Dialyt , Zieljagd or Zielsechs Low Turret mounted in 1943, is a certainty.

These glasses may have been erected in 1940 on Low Turret guns of the first manufacturing but not in 1943!

I found to my collection of ten and BMJ or Ajack first type, and I never found anything else with Low Turret assembly of 1943 ....

Again, I do not mean the production of 1940 but that of 1943!

For me, the mass is said!

I do not believe that Your Assumptions are Correct , It`s interesting that you have such manual in your collection . I do not have one but I do know a Collector who does also have an Original . In regards to there being no known Low Turret as You say before the G block , Just because a Low Turret in G Block has not surfaced for Collectors to Verify. One should not assume they do not exist or were not being made at or before the G block .

With many different Variants of Scopes being Available for use it is presumptuous to say only 2 Scope types were used which also in the Hand Book it states plainly that their is 6 Variants that are acceptable
for purchase from Hunters and for use on LT & SSR .

As for the You saying there has never been Low Turret with Heliavier , Ziel-Dialyt , Zieljadgd or Zielsechs
is in my opinion an Assumption . Just because You do not have information or seen one does not make it so . Of all the sniper Rifles produced during WWII maybe about 1/10th of a percent or less have survived or less .

Out of all the Scopes that were available at this point in time of the war to say I said and I repeat only Ajack & BMJ were used on the 43 produced LT is Your Opinion . Your welcome to it but .So are You saying the 6 different Scopes listed for use in the Handbook were put in for just for taking up space on the page .

I know of a Zeiss Zielsechs that is LT Also known is a Lovec with LT and to look at the Serial Number on the Ring one can not tell from this which which letter block it is from so to say that it did not come from a BYF 43 is also an assumption .

I know that these Scopes in the Hand Book were in fact used and not as You say they do not correspond to anything and or they are projects that were not realized .I am also had the opportunity to see original Purchase Document for such Scope .

I beg to differ on this point also I have such Scope in my Collection although mine is not from LT but from SSR and know of 2 other such scopes in another collection from a German Collector .

I do not understand what your point is about the Hand Book being Drawn and not Photographed has no bearing what so ever many German manuals are done this way .

I wish to also make well known there is a great deal of Collectors of German WWII Arms who do not share their Collections or share their Collection with collectors on forums so there are many Specimens that are not known such as G. Sturgess and many others .

I have learned early on in Collecting to never say never . Best Regards

C.P.Goerz
12-28-2011, 10:12 PM
vaughn,
i have been looking for photo of zielvier scope but have not found it.scope is Zielvier #82084.it is a commercial scope.it has the czech retailer F.Faulkner,Praha engraved on the scope tube.
Zeiss scopes from late 1930s on my list are:
Zielmar 1 1/2x
Zieleins 1x
Zielklein 2 1/4x
Zielklein 2 1/4x with windage
Zielvier 4x steel tube
Zielvier 4x Dural tube
Zielvier 4x with windage
Zielsechs 6x steel tube
Zielsechs 6x Dural tube
Zielacht 8x
Zielmulti 1-4x variable

vaughn99
12-28-2011, 11:52 PM
Hello,

when ever you find that pic let me know. i didn't count the with factory windage (WFW) as a different model as its just an add on option to a current model. they also had Zielsechs WFW, Zielseches Featherlight WFW, Zielvier Featherlight WFW so i guess that makes 14 models. I have 1 example of the Zielvier Featherlight WFW but no Zielseches yet with pics, but did have a observation reported for both but no 100% pics yet. the 2 other 82,000 zeiss scopes reported were crappy pics and misread serial observations. scope features put the scope way earlier many no 3 starting serials get misread as an 8.


later
vaughn

C.P.Goerz
12-29-2011, 11:18 AM
vaughn,
i have in my data that zeiss offered factory windage starting in 1938
i have seen 2 Zielvier Dural with windage #65358 and #65366.
the reticle adjustment parts are a lot different on my Zielklein with windage #55798 than the standard Zielklein.the windage was not just added on to standard scope.i still have my apart after rebluing the tube.i will being taking some photos of the internal parts.the other Zielklein i have seen with windage are #65406 and #65434.
have many questions on Zeiss scopes.know you have been interested in Zeiss scopes for awhile.
i have seen some Zielklein with an asterisk following the serial number.do you know what the asterisk was used for? zielklein i have seen are #80348*,#80498*,#80819*.

Dave Roberts
12-30-2011, 11:39 PM
Not sure maybe this is of Interest , I was able to buy another
SC Zeiss Zielvier Scope and Rings with Ser#81250 Best Regards