RFSS Contract

[JoeW]

Might as well start a thread on these rifles. Mine is a Mauser #26735.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/MauserRFSS26735a.jpg

RFSS property cartouche in the butt-stock.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/MauserRFSS26735b.jpg

On the other forum, I saw mention of a marking on the side of the rear sight. I checked mine and found this.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/MauserRFSS26735d.jpg

Anyone have any idea of its significance. Configuration is similar to some P08 acceptance marks I believe.

[mauser99]

Joe, thats a standard mauser proof from that time period. 34/35 This shows up on s42g K98 rifles and rear sight parts used on Gew98 m's of the same period. Nothing specific to dsm34's or luger's...Nice rifle. It's great you found us.. :hail:

[JoeW]

Thanks very much for that explanation. My forte is obviously not long guns. These are interesting rifles. I do not know what the common thought is about these, but I saw in a thread on the other forum that these were thought to be used for training of the early SS-VT units like LSAH. The only period documented purpose of these that I have is for training of Allegemeine SS units, to be issued in specific quantities to the smaller forces.

[mauser22]

Righteous example precisely in the right SN range.

This is the only SS marking I have seen applied to trainers as a property mark that I have been able to substantiate.

You may rest assured that this gun was used by the SS as a trainer.

I have observed several legit guns with SS presentation markings. Naturally all of these are unique and applied in numerous and sundry fashion. In the case of those, one always has to be suspect except when provenance is known.

This takes into account quite a number of trainers. Should anyone have a different style of SS property mark they believe is legitimate, I would love to see it.

Good Collecting!!!

[mauser99]

The serial ranges apply to all makers just not mauser. Meaning these rifles were puchased from the factories or through dealers in allotments. Blocks of rifles. JimW. helped me when I was looking to purchase my rf/ss Waffenstadt suhl dsm. Having serial data is a major help in this department. He blessed it, I bought it...

[JoeW]

Jim, I didn't say they weren't trainers. They were used as trainers and there are photos of them in use at shooting ranges. Wayne, my list show quite a varied serial range indicating procurement in blocks like you wrote.

[mauser99]

well, I'm far from the most versed in serial blocks for Dsm's..There are guys that have been at it much longer than me. It's like the D.r.p. dsm I have. Simpson states seeing a high and low serial range. So that means to me. THey bought some. Then bought more. The same with these. I just think there is one definate "mauser" range. Then puchases from other makers. I-E waffenstadt suhl. I think some one mentioned other makers with the rf/ss stamp..

[mauser22]

Struggles conveying intended meaning using the written word. Did not mean to infer that you did not think it was a trainer.

To further muddy the water:

And yes, various blocks, indicating various buys or contracts/deliveries, and other manufacturers sold them to the SS as well. And in some cases clearlyg the guns were bought via retail firms in onesy twosy fashion and makred in this same manner. Again, a matter of provenance to ascertain originality as this marking is often faked.

Other firms which "appear" to have delivered guns to SS in lots that had this marking applied and observed, re-inforced by Serial number observations are: Walther, Waffenstadt Suhl (Sauer), Menz, and BSW.

Quite ironically, I have even observed this marking on one of the very last Simson Marked (but likely BSW era produced) DSMs.

Good Collecting!!

[JoeW]

Don't forget the maker Erma. Bill Grist has one.

Jim, have you ever observed the RFSS on a KKW?

[mauser22]

The only trainers I have ever seen this applied to were DSM's. That is definately not to say that it may not have been applied to others. My "opinion" is, that by 1938/39 time frame (advent of the KKW) either the SS was not procurring additional trainers in large numbers or the marking was no longer a priority.
The preponderance (NOT ALL) of the DSM's so marked fall in the 1936 to early 1938 time frame of production date estimates (by serial number and features).

[JoeW]

Thank you for reporting your "non-sightings". With all you have seen, I would opine that the marking was discontinued, as KKWs were ordered.

[johnmac]

Beautiful rifle! Thanks for sharing.

Ahhhh this is one I always regret..... I had a chance to pick one up from a well respected collector on this is site, and I passed on it.....

Damn....

[JoeW]

....Other firms which "appear" to have delivered guns to SS in lots that had this marking applied and observed, re-inforced by Serial number observations are: Walther, Waffenstadt Suhl (Sauer), Menz, and BSW.Quite ironically, I have even observed this marking on one of the very last Simson Marked (but likely BSW era produced) DSMs.Good Collecting!!

Jim, apart from parts being made by J.P. Sauer, do you have any info on the actual company assembling the Waffenstadt Suhl .22 rifles? I asked Jim Cate, author of several books on the Sauer firm and he replied that apart from barrels or small part, he was not aware of any production of .22s by Sauer.

[mauser22]

In addition to the Sauer logo on the receivers (hidden underneath the trigger sear and only visible when removed), the Waffenstadht Suhl and one variation of Geco (there are three) show other signs of having been assembled by Sauer.

Primary evidence being the serial number fonts and the plum colored finish on some parts. No doubt a cooperative effort by more than one Suhl Firm as stocks on both these are C.G.H. marked. Barrels by another firm.
Close examination of serial number fonts as most of you know bear them out to be unique by manufacturer on close examination. The fonts on those two DSM variations are identical to Sauer production of the same period.

Other indicators that Sauer was the assembler of those is the proofs being identical to the proofs on their trade name commercial guns, same time frame, and the fact that Sauer made Double Barrel shotguns for the Geco firm same time frame, numbered right into their own double shotgun production range but with Geco Logo on exterior and the Sauer Logo hidden on the bottom barrel flats, much the same as the Waffenstadht Suhl DSM and it's twin Geco logo'ed DSM.

I intend to present the evidence with photos in a future post and you all can form your own opinion based on what I can lay out.

I had hoped to get to Suhl to do some research on that this year. Although in the country in September, other agendas precluded that. Perhaps down the road. Have satisfied myself that I am on track but realize I don't have enough evidence to get a conviction yet.

As to why Sauer would "hide" it's envolvement in production of those one can only speculate. There is more than one viable explanation for that though.

I will defer all that until I have adequate time to recover some misplaced archives and check all my notes. Please bear with me on that.

Probably should not have mentioned JPS relative to all that, as not yet prepared to open that can of worms.

[JoeW]

Jim, these observations and conclusions are fantastic. I want to share them with Jim Cate. As you know, for his three books, he and his two co-authors were allowed free access to the Suhl archives and especially those relating to J.P. Sauer. I want to get his reaction and to determine if he saw anything that might have indicated production and delivery to the SS of these rifles. Now, that production would include non-RFSS marked rifles too.

I corresponded with Jim Cate on these points......

"Other indicators that Sauer was the assembler of those is the proofs being identical to the proofs on their trade name commercial guns,...."

.... and he pointed out that all weapons produced in Suhl would receive the identical proof marks of the Suhl Proof House, so there is no necessary correlation of this to Sauer production.

"Primary evidence being the serial number fonts and the plum colored finish on some parts. No doubt a cooperative effort by more than one Suhl Firm as stocks on both these are C.G.H. marked. Barrels by another firm.Close examination of serial number fonts as most of you know bear them out to be unique by manufacturer on close examination. The fonts on those two DSM variations are identical to Sauer production of the same period."

Jim Cate noted that during the production period of the Sauer Mod 30, Behorden Modell and Model 38, numbering dies varied. To what particular Sauer weapon are you comparing the Waffenstadt Suhl numbers?

The name Waffenstadt Suhl seems so generic, but it would have to be an actual company inasmuch as German liability laws deemed the name on the gun as the responsible company. Thus Sauer hid their name. So it would seem that there had to be some company or legal consortium to accept legal liability.

[JoeW]

Here is a Gustloff KKW that was reported on the WA Forum today. The serial is 258 432 with an SS marking on the lower right side of the butt stock. The marking differs from the earlier RFSS property mark in that it is only the two runes within a circle. An eagle stamp of some sort was reported on the other side of the butt-stock but no photos yet.
I do not care for the runic stamp. It appears to be two different dies used: the circle and the runes.

[WaPrüf2]

What is the normal orientation of the property stamp on these? Across the butt (parallel the buttplate) or at a right angle to it?

[JoeW]

Check the photos on page 1.

[WaPrüf2]

Check the photos on page 1.

Photo appears to show stamping parallel buttplate based on woodgrain. Single photo does not establish norm. Question still stands.

[JoeW]

I am sorry Craig for expectin psychic abilities. The standard RFSS property stamp is below the steel disc in the stock with the letters parallel to the grain. The one just posted has almost similar placement but the stamp is unknown and appears to be in two pieces to me. A comment on WAF remarked that the stock had been sanded and refinished, leading to the lightness of the stamp. I don't think so.

[mrfarb]

I wasn't a big fan of that SS marking on the WAF trainer, even less so when he showed a picture of the eagle on the other side.

[denny gaither]

"The preponderance (NOT ALL) of the DSM's so marked fall in the 1936 to early 1938 time frame of production date estimates (by serial number and features)".

Jim,
Just an FYI in case you do not have the number listed. I once owned as RFSS marked DSM - Waffenstadt Suhl dated 1934, sn 1796.

[Bob in OHIO]

I wasn't a big fan of that SS marking on the WAF trainer, even less so when he showed a picture of the eagle on the other side.

Plus, that Gustloff action in post #16 appears to be sitting in Mauser wood based on the band spring that only Mauser KKWs used...

[Bob in OHIO]

Here's my late 29xxx example...

[abat343]

Hello all,
This is my first post and would like to thank all those that have posted prior, the information here is a great reference source.

My father and I are trying to determine the legitimacy of this rifle. It was picked up in a pawn shop that came in with a pistol as well. We have learned from looking at another Weihrauch on this forum, that is only about 190 off in serial numbers, seen that they have the exact same markings and proofs, except the rifle we have has the RFSS stamp on the stock. It is also located on the left side and not the right, where most of the stamps seem to be placed. All of the numbers match on the gun, including the stock and hand guard, unfortunately it was duffle cut and the lower part of the stock and front barrel band are missing. When holding it you know that is an original piece, but we are looking to determine if the stamp is original or were they faked? It appears to be an exact duplicate of all of the other RFSS circle stamps that have been shown and we would like to know if it is possible it was just placed on the wrong side. Did the manufactueres place these stamps or were they done when they arrived to the specific units like SS or SA? From the research we have been able to do it shows that Weihrauch placed "6/22 Long Rifle" on their rifles and many others did not, so was the right side placement just another oddity with Weihrauch, if they indeed did the stampings for the units to whom they were shipped?

Two final questions, first how uncommon is the Weihrauch maker for these types of trainers, and second, although we recognize that the missing portion of the stock and the barrel band will affect the value, what is a ballpark value of this rifle.

We welcome any comments or information to help us solve this little mystery and look froward to discovering the legitimacy of the RFSS Stamp. To be honest neither of us had ever seen one of these until last Friday and we have had quite a research adventure over the weekend.
Again thank to anyone that can shed some light on this rifle.
Respectfully,
Tyler Alberts
21567
21568
21569
21570
21571
21572

[mauser99]

welcome ! yes the rifle is 100% correct. Some are marked on either side. I have one marked just like you'res and its a waffenstadt suhl rifle. The duffle cut hurts the rifle some but it can be fixed by someone with wood working experiance. The upper band and pin I have and can sell you if interested. Or if you just want to make some cash on it please let me know. Thanks. I sent you a private message as well..

[abat343]

welcome ! yes the rifle is 100% correct. Some are marked on either side. I have one marked just like you'res and its a waffenstadt suhl rifle. The duffle cut hurts the rifle some but it can be fixed by someone with wood working experiance. The upper band and pin I have and can sell you if interested. Or if you just want to make some cash on it please let me know. Thanks. I sent you a private message as well..

Thank you Mauser99,

That is certainly good news. I was still wondering if the rifles were stamped by the maker or the unit, is this maker considered desirable and less common than others?
Look forward to hearing any other responses.
Respectfully,
Tyler Alberts

[Bob in OHIO]

Good to see the front end pic here and general lack of modification other than the missing parts. Nice... v. nice...

[mauser99]

I dont have an answer why some are on the left and some on the right. But thats how they are. It's usually a maker specific thing. I assume the stamps were applied at the factory. HZW is scarce and they also supplied mounts to the ss for short side rail snipers.

[WaPrüf2]

I have Weihrauch DSM 34 RFSS SN 21073 with RFSS stamp on left side; came out of woodwork and is correct.

[Timelapse]

These are interesting rifles. I do not know what the common thought is about these, but I saw in a thread on the other forum that these were thought to be used for training of the early SS-VT units like LSAH. The only period documented purpose of these that I have is for training of Allegemeine SS units, to be issued in specific quantities to the smaller forces.
Great forum grest thread.

I have a book "Kriegsausbildung der Hitler-Jugend" from 1943. The chapter on page #45 to #61 reads " Waffenlehre - Das Kleinkalibergewehr (Deutches Sportsmodell)". It contains the user manual and instructions on how to shoot and clean the rifle, illustrated with drawings and photos of Hitler-Jugend personel in a prone and sitting shooting position.


The preponderance (NOT ALL) of the DSM's so marked fall in the 1936 to early 1938 time frame of production date estimates (by serial number and features).

I have a Mauser DSM 34 with the stamp RF/SS in a cirkle on the the stock, just like the photos already shown here. Mine also has a 5 digits (26xxx) serial and I was wondering how I could find out the year of production on this model, anyone?
Also the cleaning rod is missing so if one of you could post a photo of the rod along with the messurement I would be thrilled.

[JoeW]

The decision by the SS-Hauptamt to procure and distribute DSM 34s was made in April 1935.

It would be very helpful if you would share the serial number of your RFSS rifle for our data base. Thank you.