Simson/BSW 625a,b,c,L? For review.

[mauser99]

These are photos I took a while back. If you've been on the old gunboards site you have seen these and I will bore you with them again.:yawn: But, These show some of the progression in the 625 line that clearly shows It's morphing into a dsm-34 lookalike.
I still feel This rifle was BSW's primary focus even though they made/ or assembled dsm-34's Marked BSW. THey made 625's till the apearance of the KKW..I'd say right at the 200,000 range. As 625L's show up right till just under that figure.

[mauser99]

Here is the change from the Simson type band that is held on with a screw acting also as a sling swivel. To the dsm-34 band being secured with the cross pin. This happens between the A and B modell and I'm sure there is some lag between on serial numbers as JimW. explained on Bob's post.

[mauser99]

Front sight change between the A & B modell. This B modell is an early simson B modell that is fairly scarce. It still uses the Simson type upper band With the dsm-34 lower.

"added"-overall of a simson 625B showing the use of dsm lower band and Simson upper. By this point it shows the 625 was using the sights,and lower band and handguard retaining ring. The handguard it's self is more narrow at this point as the 625b has a more narrow receiver diameter.

[mauser99]

Again, A really early Simson B and a later more common BSW B, The loading gate has been opened up quite a bit.

[S/42]

So what is a W624 Wayne? :moon::facepalm::laugh:


"It's a very rare version just before the 625 and 626!!!!!
Give a guy a break...Or I'll stop feeding you good rifles.."" M99:ban::ban::ban::ban::ban:

Vulch reply: I knew you made rifles up... I KNEW IT! I won't show you my W623 then for editing my post and your original post to reflect your shame :)

[mauser99]

I started this mess and I'm still on the fence. Some say it's a C .Some like myself say it's a capitol L and others are un-decided. It coincideds with the logo change at BSW and The rifles are different enough to be another modell. I have a gothic capitol letter chart which I will post at some point. B.Simpson agrees with me on the text but has no period documentation to confirm the excisitance of a modell L. Most of the one's I've seen are also police E/L property marked like mine. JoeW. way trying to dig up a manual at one point. So it's just one of those things we can disscuss again.

[mauser99]

See Vulch, I do like these things.. I remember the one you bought. It's got some mixed features as well..Glad the stock was repairable...

[S/42]

I agree Wayne - it's probably an L: http://www.library.yale.edu/cataloging/music/fraktur.htm

[mauser99]

I agree Wayne - it's probably an L: http://www.library.yale.edu/cataloging/music/fraktur.htm

The biggest argument is."why would they of made a C then an L" ? It makes no sense so it has to be a "C"..They skipped all those letters in a series. Well my answer is. "this is a company that made a modell "Z" aparantly berfore or during the C or B series.

Even Henry Ford made the model T before the A.. Just food for thought...

[mauser22]

Wayne perhaps I missed it, but you do not say if that rifle is .22 or 4mm??

I have examined all the factory catalogs from 1933 to 1940 and there is no mention of W625L.

As with any german firearm of this period I will never say "never".

Caliber and better pic of receiver?

Have you compared the role mark to one of the 4mm W625Z's?

The first mention of the W625C in the catalogs is 1938.
The 1937 catalog still indicates the W625B.

At the point in time that the BSW logo transitioned to the smaller style with the "Berlin Suhler Waffen und Fahrzeugwerke" wreathed around it atop the receiver, for some reason the font changed. I suspect your rifle is .22 lfb and in my opinion is a W625C.

[Aeisir]

Wayne perhaps I missed it, but you do not say if that rifle is .22 or 4mm??

I have examined all the factory catalogs from 1933 to 1940 and there is no mention of W625L....

Have you compared the role mark to one of the 4mm W625Z's?

Jim,
the "Z" reflects zimmer (parlor) version?
d.

Yes as indicated in the Catalog Description. Good Collecting!!!

[JoeW]

Here is a link to the discussion that occurred last summer on the other .22 forum concerning the on-going C/L debate. It is quite illuminating.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?157267-Simson-bsw-trainers-a-progression../page2&highlight=w625l

The Simson "W" prefix meant "Wehrsportgewehr" or "Waffe"? Re-reading the other forum post, was it concluded that the physical changes shown on the odd font marked "C" rifles predates the use of that odd font? So is there anything else to delineate the use of this font for a specific model of W625? Wayne, do you have all these odd font W625s as E/Ls or are there ordinary commercial models found. Could this perhaps have been a specific contract for the police and it was designated with this odd font? My list of thirteen of these rifles shows them all to be in the mid 190 000 range and but for two, all E/L. Perhaps those were mistaken reports. But this is surely not enough to rely on. I am sure Jim you must have a larger list to indicate a mixture of police contract and ordinary commercial sales.

Bob Simpson remarked in the other discussion that there was no W625L shown in the catalogs they had that ran to 1938. But the E/L marked BSWs were not necessarily made in 1938 or earlier. Any later printed catalog evidence of models?

[mauser99]

Thanks Joe. This was one of the most interesting topics brought up. The linking of the thread helps as well. I cant say if they were all made for the police. Just a number of examples are police marked. Mine has a barrel 1" longer than my 625C. If the KKW was introduced in 39 these would have to predate the kkw. Bill G's example is the lowest and I've noted them just under 200k. As the BSW kkw probably starts at 200,000.. This is a chart I used to study the text. There is no german "C" that has that shape. No matter what font you use. The capitol letter "L" on the other hand has that exact shape.. It's the only piece of evidence I can use and the facts are pretty clear cut.

[JoeW]

All of the 13 W625L rifles that I had recorded were in the 194 000 to 195 000 range. A pitiful sampling for sure, but I was only looking for the E/L marked varieties. And of those 13, two in my list are not recorded as E/L. I can't verify that they weren't E/L, just that I don't have that info. I am sure there were other non-E/L W625Ls?

Again, if the latest 1938 catalog shows only W625C and only KKWs are shown in the 1939/40 Akah catalog, then it might be a true model number and not a font variation.

I guess Brad/Bob is not aware of this forum or has other pursuits at this time?

[mauser99]

Brad is aware. He has just come back from overseas. He also knows and had posted on the old thread. He's not saying no or yes at this point. It was a topic of disscussion and it was really never resolved. He has alot on his plate. Any way If you read the old post I listed what I tracked. As noting the police proofs. I bought my rifle with the seller not seeing the mark. So I can only guess most people dont know about it.

[mauser22]

You fellows present a very convincing case.

I suppose it's even imagineable that with the NSDAP running all the operations at this point in time, perhaps a specific model designation might have been applied for that contract only. My old notes on SN obersvations are not that thorough and with no examples in my possession to review can't tell you if all with this style suffix are also Police marked on the stocks. If I understand you correctly you are both saying that is the case on all you have observed. If so, that would lend much creedence as does your fonts chart to this in fact being a W625L.

At the very least you have forced me to put aside what I thought I knew and think outside the box.

But, then, I am from Missouri and you know what they say. Without a document or prospectus, literature, etc indicating a Model W625L my jury remains at best "hung".

This forum is gonna be great. Good Work Guys!

[mauser99]

This is an older topic for me as it's been almost a year since I brought this up. I have owned two of these and One had no signs of being police marked. The example pictured and one other on gun-broker were police stamped. Bill G's example seems to be the earliest observed. If you are reading this Bill please re-post you're rifle on this forum.

[JoeW]

I got hold of Bill and he will either post or send me the serial number.

[JoeW]

Finally got Bill to confirm what I had his W625C(L) to be: 185 363 with the odd C(L) and SA butt stock property marking. That kinda blows me out of the water as regards a tight special production contract for the police.

[JoeW]

Considering the dislike of the Simson name by the III Reich, can we consider that the changeover to the BSW trademark on the rifles occurred in mid to late 1933 immediately following the renaming of the Simson company to BSW?

[JoeW]

I don't know if anyone noticed the BSW 317K #199 214 for sale on Gunbroker. The photos are quite interesting, when comparing the font of this BSW to the chart that Wayne posted. You will note that the font used for the K of this gun is identical to that on the chart posted, that also shows the same L as on the W625Ls we have been discussing. Serial would put kissin' cousins to the Ls and just before the KKWs.

And next to it is the 317K put out by Gustloff with 251 073.

[mauser99]

My point exactly Joe. The text doesnt lie. Also thats why there are breaks in dsm34 and 625 production serial wise. They also made the 617k and other rifles and they all use the same sequence..There are 617's made post april 40 as I've seen a few examples with the E/n proof. They are Gustloff marked of course.

[JoeW]

My point exactly Joe. The text doesnt lie. Also thats why there are breaks in dsm34 and 625 production serial wise. They also made the 617k and other rifles and they all use the same sequence..There are 617's made post april 40 as I've seen a few examples with the E/n proof. They are Gustloff marked of course.

January 15, 1940 was the date the Suhl proof house began use of the E/N stamps.

[RyanE]

It definately looks like a Fraktur L to me. If these were police/paramilitary contract guns (which is an attractive conclusion IMO), might the 'L' indicate 'Lehr' or some form of the German word? I think some Army training units used a Fraktur L on their shoulder boards, so it might make sense.
Just a thought...:)

[JoeW]

An interesting thought, but at the time these would have been produced, the police were still planning on adding Ausbildung-Btls to suplement the police forces lost in the transfer of the LAPO to the Wehrmacht in 1935/36. By the way, the police did have a shoulder board after the war started with an L- Lehr Btl.

[grissim]

I have this gun with the serial numbers in the 180### range it has a swivel type sling in the front but at the end of the stock no metal just ends with wood im wondering if there is a part missing or if thats how it was made.Can someone post a full pic of the w625a gun
Griss

[mauser99]

well, the only thing I can grab quick is this photo. The 625a has a sheet metal lower band with a seperate swivel like the one shown in the front. But, its on the bottom not the side. This photo is showing both variations of the 625b. The 625 & 625a have the bottom sling mount. There are a few changes from the 625a to the 625b. Hope this helps.

[Nicole Wiley]

After much consideration, debate, and research I have to conclude (at least for myself) that there is no "L" on the 625 series of BSW.

There were different fonts and although the "C" and "L" are strikingly similar to one another in one font doesn't seem the case in another font. I included a cheatsheet to peer at.

I think that either someone got a creative bug up their butt or maybe for marking purposes they changed the font style. But that's it. There are not significant enough changes within the mechanisms or design of the C's to call them a new Model 625L.

Upon observing the C model there is a Logo font change around the 185xxx range. [I noted the Logo differences as Circle BSW and BSW-Suhl} Out of a sample size of 12 guns with the new font style I see one discrepency:

172287 BSW-Suhl last consecutive old font before the change to new font- left gun in attached photo
185892 Circle BSW
191093 Circle BSW center gun in attached photo
192438 BSW- Suhl right gun in attached photo
194370 Circle BSW
194388 Circle BSW
194762 Circle BSW
195034 Circle BSW
195283 Circle BSW
195307 Circle BSW
195676 Circle BSW
195715 Circle BSW
202911 Circle BSW

....... This gun {192438 BSW- Suhl} is what made me deliberate so long. So I looked into all the catalogs and price lists. That turned up nothing. And there was no individual advertising outside of these sources for it either.
If guns didn't pass initial inspection they were put aside. Likewise if they were to fill an order they were put aside. I think this out-of-sequence example was because of one of these two reasons. If a retailer ordered a 625B, would they have sent him a 625A? I doubt it. I believe they stamped the serial number consecutively before they left the door, were slow to filling orders and fixing rejects, and without alerting the media at large changed the font.

[Nicole Wiley]

Sorry, the last upload was goofy.

[JoeW]

True, there does not appear to be a W325L advertised. Then again, none of the fonts in the cheatsheet you posted above look like the questioned Ls and Ks, do they? And definitely not like a C.

[Nicole Wiley]

I want to take history into account here, and please feel free to pipe in to correct me or contribute...
The trainers were made under the impression that they were for export/commercial sales, but we have only one that in export marked. The 317's however and other commercial guns(that do have import markings on them, I've recorded many) have "Jmport" on them. Hitler wasn't supposed to be making these trainers, but upon first glance they have a gothic font, which, as noted on the cheatsheet's key, was used for the English speaking world. What better of a way to hide and explain away the increased production of guns that have a different purpose?

[JoeW]

I want to take history into account here, and please feel free to pipe in to correct me or contribute...
The trainers were made under the impression that they were for export/commercial sales, but we have only one that in export marked. The 317's however and other commercial guns(that do have import markings on them, I've recorded many) have "Jmport" on them. Hitler wasn't supposed to be making these trainers, but upon first glance they have a gothic font, which, as noted on the cheatsheet's key, was used for the English speaking world. What better of a way to hide and explain away the increased production of guns that have a different purpose?

Nicole, I don't believe there was anything surreptitious in the production of these trainers. There were no restrictions on production of .22 rifles in 1934, much less later in the 30s when the W625Ls were cranked out. Your crib sheet does not feature the font that was shown earlier in this thread. And one thing to consider. The font of the BSW logo remained unchanged, while the font/letter of the W625 model changed back and forth apparently.

[Aeisir]

True, there does not appear to be a W325L advertised. Then again, none of the fonts in the cheatsheet you posted above look like the questioned Ls and Ks, do they? And definitely not like a C.

K. Huddle's script style No.4 "C" is closest to the "L". Since there is variability in the font of model names on the BSW receivers, it is at least plausible that the L is in fact a C given what huddle describes as a fraktur-like traditional script.

[JoeW]

K. Huddle's script style No.4 "C" is closest to the "L". Since there is variability in the font of model names on the BSW receivers, it is at least plausible that the L is in fact a C given what huddle describes as a fraktur-like traditional script.

Ken Huddle identifies his lettering style No.4 as "Traditional German script". It is in fact the German script developed in 1911 by Ludwig Sütterlin in Prussia as a modern handwriting script. Taught in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s, the Nazis attempted unsuccessfully to ban its use. I know it was used in printed books and handwritten entries, as Huddle mentions, well as certain printed award documents used by the Nazis until they began their efforts to eradicate its use. I don't recall ever seeing such a script used for metal dies

The letter samples provided by Wayne are Gothic style and seem to me to be more similar to the letter on the rifle. Even more so is the "L" found here in a view of German Fraktur letters.