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JoeW
01-29-2011, 02:10 AM
I have had this scope for quite a number of years. I bought it a short-side rail scope, as it is identical to the scope illustrated in the Fischer Waffentechnischer Leitfaden that was published for III Reich police use from 1940 through 1944. The mounting of the scope is a short side rail, isn't it?
I would presume the police use commericial equipment as is this scope. Anyone know anything about this scope? In all my years of collecting, I have never seen what I consider an authentic police sniper scope/rifle, only the illustrations in the training manuals.

The body of the scope is steel but the one end is aluminum as identified in the manual. It is painted black, though the name and serial number is visible. Also painted black are other aluminum parts.
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/policemanualscope.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/policesniperscopewithcaps.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/policesniperscopename.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/scopeadjustmentmarks.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/policescopeadjustmentdial2.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/policescopeadjustmentdial1.jpg

Dave Roberts
01-30-2011, 01:01 AM
Hello JoeW
Does Your Meter Dial have any Meter Marks and a Rifle Number on left Side of Tube on It . If not most likely Never used Militarily as it should have both Marking . I have in Collection a Military Scope with Mount Matching to each other with Rifle Number on Both and Meter Marks on Dial as in the Manual . But sadly no Rifle . Also I have never seen one that was with Matching Scope and Mount . Also I do not know of anyone who has seen one of these
SS Police SSR Snipers . I would give a lot just to see an Original one in Hand . I have seen Pics of one from an Auction Catalog from Germany but that was it and did not show much for How it was Marked . I have seen two Original Photo of such Rifles with Scopes and Mounts in use one was SS Police other SS Soldier unsure if SS Police or not . Best Regards

JoeW
01-30-2011, 08:22 AM
Hi Dave

Thanks for your thoughts on this piece. The lack of markings on the adjustment ring has always bothered me since I found this at a small show that used to be held in Edwardsville, Ill back in the 70s. But the ring of aluminum seemed to be heavily coated with black paint, as are other pieces and I thought perhaps it was hidden.

The lack of markings on the center adjustment ring is problematic I think. Here is an interesting one that sold on the Hermann auction that has similar characteristics, but includes markings on the adjustment ring.
What do you think the four digit number is on the eyepiece below the scope power? The rifle number?

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm57.pl?f=NR&c=71825&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat57_s.txt

The numbering on the eyepiece must be the rifle number, as the one sold on Hermann is a different number from mine as well as the one pictured in the manual. They couldn't be model numbers. Was Kohler a prominent manufacturer of these optics? Their scopes weren't offered in the 1937 Geco catalog, nor the 1932 Akah one.

The period of introduction of these predates any SS connection. Police militarized units were being formed but supplies were commercially contracted. Such police units did not adopt an SS prefix to their names until 1942. Of course the SS-Polizei Division was became a part of the Waffen SS soon after its creation and was removed from control of the Order Police. So I wonder who and what were in those photos you saw. That would be interesting.

JoeW
01-31-2011, 01:52 AM
ac1545a, thank you for furthering this discussion. Without rings (you mean in the entire mounting?) and no rifle number, my scope and the one in the link to Hermann Historica would be unissued. It is of course logical that the number on the scope would be a serial number, but I was not aware that all scopes had serial numbers.

P Kohler was resurrected as Pecar after the war? Did the Berlin company escape and buy the remains of the pre-war Pecar company that also made scopes? How did that work? But post-war production is not really germane to our discussion is it?

I am sure there were many Kohler scopes made in the pre-war and war time period as you write. It is just I didn't see any in those two prominent German catalogs for the industry. But regardless of how many styles Kohler produced, I am only interested in the 4x scope that is illustrated in the 1940 Police training manual shown above that is identical to the one in the Hermann link and darn close to mine, save for the adjustment markings, all with the single vertical adjustment tower and focus adjustment screw.

My tube is 27mm and the reticle pattern was described above as two horizontal bars with squared ends and a single vertical pointed line at the center. It is described in the scope section of the 1937 Geco catalog as the standard display?

Thanks again.

Nigromontanus
02-01-2011, 01:47 AM
I am sorry, this is a commercial scope, never has seen sniper service.

JoeW
02-01-2011, 02:30 AM
I am sorry, this is a commercial scope, never has seen sniper service.

You have told me that the scope I photographed is a commercial scope. Is the scope pictured in the photo of the manual in the first post also commercial? Is the scope shown in the link to the Hermann Historica auction also commerical? was there a difference in the equipment provided to police snipers according to their manual as opposed to Heer Scharfschutzen? The police used commercial equipment: their training rifles and pistols were all commercial production contracted for by the police. So why wouldn't they use commecial scopes rather than military scopes?

Dave Roberts
02-02-2011, 08:17 PM
JoeW
These Scopes are Commercial from what I and other have been able to figure. These Scopes were Supplied to the SS and were most like from Commecial Stocks or a Run made specifically for the SS Police it just so happens Yours did not get used by SS.These Scopes and Mounts would all have a Production Number hence No# on Rear Focal Housing and also will have Gew# on Left Side of Tube and Mount as Subjects I have Posted but only ones used Militarily . I also Posted two Pics of this Scopes & Mounts in use by one SS Police and other is Unknown SS Soldier but both without a doubt P. Kohler Scopes & Police Varient SSR Mount . To this date the only Scopes ever found on this Varient Mount is the P.Kohler . There is another SSR Mount Very Similar but not the same and this Mount has been always found with SS.Dienstglas Ajack Scope . Have a look at Pics . Also do not be mistaken the No# on Objective is the Scope Serial Number . The Military P.Kolher Scopes have only ever been found with SSR Mounts , No other Sniper Varient used this Scope on it as far as I am or others are aware of . Just no proof has ever come to be known at least not to date . Best Regards

JoeW
02-03-2011, 09:58 AM
Thank you very much for your explanation. I understand now about the rifle numbering on the tube. Without the rifle number, it was never issued to a gun, therefore not in sniper service. Unissued? Who knows.

The photos are much appreciated. First time I see a photo of a policeman, officer or nco, shooting a rifle with scope. I notice the first photo is titled Sniper Training. But the shooter is an officer. Seems more like a shooting event. Only one NCO seen in the background. Anyway, I notice the one tube is marked Kohler, then Pecar 4x.
Were commercial scopes advertised as Pecar in Geco catalogs made by Kohler? One final question. Photo #11 from a book indicates in German that police SSR mounts are not constructed in the same manner as Heer or SS SSR mounts. How do they differ?

Many thanks again for the explanation.

Dave Roberts
02-04-2011, 01:00 AM
Thank you very much for your explanation. I understand now about the rifle numbering on the tube. Without the rifle number, it was never issued to a gun, therefore not in sniper service. Unissued? Who knows.

The photos are much appreciated. First time I see a photo of a policeman, officer or nco, shooting a rifle with scope. I notice the first photo is titled Sniper Training. But the shooter is an officer. Seems more like a shooting event. Only one NCO seen in the background. Anyway, I notice the one tube is marked Kohler, then Pecar 4x.
Were commercial scopes advertised as Pecar in Geco catalogs made by Kohler? One final question. Photo #11 from a book indicates in German that police SSR mounts are not constructed in the same manner as Heer or SS SSR mounts. How do they differ?

Many thanks again for the explanation.

JoeW
These Scope Pics come from Robert Spielauers Book Ser#975 is Mine the Other is Norbert Waldi`s . I am unaware how these wre advertised in the Geco Catalog . I Know Both these Examples are Marked differently there was a Change when and why I do not know.
Mine is marked as in the Manual , Norberts is different again I do not know why change was made but both are Original SS Police Type . As far as Title on Photo Sniper Training this I am not sure if it was on Back Side of Photo or Not . Lastly I am unsure How these Rifles Differ I have Yet to ever see an Original Completely Matching SS Police Sniper Rifle
but would give my left one just to see one in hand . And to have the opportunity to buy one, well that would be a Dream Come True . Best Regards

JoeW
02-05-2011, 12:16 AM
For your interest, here is a scan of the Pecar advertisement from the Geco 1937 catalog.
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/Poloberst/Firearms%20Related/Pecarscope.jpg

Dave Roberts
02-06-2011, 12:23 AM
JoeW
Thanks for sharing never seen this before .Best Regards

Valleysniper
02-20-2011, 03:29 AM
And here are 2 more pics pulled from E-Bay that appear to show scopes use.

JoeW
02-21-2011, 03:59 PM
Look like police troopers too, especially with the Zb26 unit. Great. Thanks.

Dave Roberts
02-22-2011, 03:42 AM
Look like police troopers too, especially with the Zb26 unit. Great. Thanks.

Hi Joe
From the research I and others have done on this Particular Scope & Mount the only SS Soldiers or Units to use these were Police . But if anyone can add to this info please do .
Best Regards .

JoeW
02-23-2011, 02:17 AM
Hi Joe
From the research I and others have done on this Particular Scope & Mount the only SS Soldiers or Units to use these were Police . But if anyone can add to this info please do .
Best Regards .

Dave, was your research done by photo identification or documentation? We know the scope and mount are identified in the Fischer weapons manual. The photo here shows a police unit. Some people call them SS but the only thing SS about them was the prefix to their regimental number. Himmler granted them the honor to carry "SS" before the term Police Regiment in 1942. But the units were controlled by the Ordnungspolizei and were not part of the Waffen SS. I have quite a bit of documentation on police supplies of weapons to various units, but over the past 35 years I have never come across a reference to a police Zielfernrohr and/or rifle combination. I am always looking.

Dave Roberts
02-27-2011, 10:47 PM
JoeW
The info that lead the collectors I know who have done research on this specific Scope & Mounting Type was from Photos and info the Collectors I know in Germany and some have some very extensive Photo and Info and one Also has Pics of a Complete Rifle that was sold a Good Number of Years Ago in an Auction and some Good Pics of Rifle with Markings but some info was not complete on the rifle in Auction . But all Pics to date are always the same type markings on Uniforms or Helmets ,Police . But this is just what has been seen and we all know how fast one Photo can Blow Everything one thinks he knows to Pieces Very Fast . So I never say never or this is only thing that is Correct or could be . Best Regards .