Blood Order Document.

[Irish Brigade]

Hello
First post here and I really enjoy the site.

I purchased this document from the daughter of a 36th Infantry Division officer.He was an Infantry Captain with the 141st infantry Regiment.The 141st was in Bayern at the end of the war/occupation.She told me this hung in his office.The document appears to have been torn or removed/mounted at one time.Also has been folded in half as there is a crease in the doucument across the center.Two calling cards are mounted to the top of the framed document.Dates on the reverse of the frame indicate framing in in 1-21-51(1951) and then another date of 2-27-65.
I have owned this for a couple years along with the Captains bronze star and award document that are framed also.

I am curious if anyone has seen a blood order document as I have shown this to a few of the local "experts" and none can give me any definative answers to the document.The comments range from: "The Germans wounldnt have done this"or "This should be fancier with more oak or laurel leafs"(I asked this gentleman if he had seen a Blood Order Document before and he replied no but it should be fancier).I do know the signature is an auto pen.Just looking for some input and these pictures are ones I took when I first purchased the document.Not the best but I can try to do more but I am not going to remove it from the frame.
Thanks for your time and opinions

[Peter U]

Hello Irish Brigade,

A.Hitler normally signed high end award document personally.
I must admit that I have never seen an original blood order award document, but would A.Hitler not have signed the award document for his good friend personally?
...
You should seek advice of blood order/NSDAP collectors, they will be able to give you a good answer and even show you how an original example looks, but I think this example is a copy.


Cheers,
Peter

[Irish Brigade]

Peter
Thanyou for looking and commenting.I had addressed the signature to a man who has written a book on soldbuchs.He had made the comment that Hitler didnt always sign document by hand as he didnt like or preferred not to.I have observed at least 4 different signatures from him over the years with various quality and uniformness.His signature seemed to change with his age or disabilities.This only adds more to the mystery.

One of the calling cards is to Himmler and the other to Gen.Wolf.I have had a few offers on the cards but am not intrested in selling or taking them out of the frame.All who offered had stated the cards are original but I have not gotten much opinion on the said document.

I myself have many questions to the document.Mainly if a copy when was it produced and by whom?When would the veteran have obtained this and why would he have it in his office if not something he brought home as a souviener??Im not trying to justify it as original just trying to learn more about it(good or bad).If It would have been sold to me at a show or by a collector or dealer I would have expected it to be priced accordingly.

In the group was another item.A ribbon bar and several weeks after the purchase the name Rommel came up concerning the medal bar.THe daughter told my friend(the man who put the two of us in touch)that her father had sent some items back to Rommels son in the early 70s.My friend called and asked if I thought the bar to be Rommels and if Rommel had a son.I said yes there is a son but I have no clue to the ownership of the medal bar.She went on to tell my friend there were other paper items and I still wait to see what will be disposed of.

Thanks again for all you insights on the document.The Mystery coontinues.
Best Wishes

Irish

[Peter U]

Hello Irish,

I to am only intrested in military documents.
Also I'am aware that A.Hitler didn't signs most of the award documents, but important once like offical/formal KC with Oak leaves/Swords for example he usually signed personally, also early pre-war promotion documents for generals are usually personally signed by A.Hitler to.
So finding a simple auto pen version on such a document would make me suspicious; items have to stand on their own, the provenance story always comes second.
Btw this isn't much of a mystery, you are just asking your questions to the wrong people and then you just get some "I guess" answers.
You should seek NSDAP award- and blood order collectors, and show them your document (you will need to make better images) and I'am 100% sure that they can give you a good answer on a short notice.
Do a google search on the blood order and you sure will find several forums on which NSDAP/blood order collectors can help you.


Succes,
Peter


PS. If you get a answer from them please inform us to.

[Sarge]

Interesting doccument, can't remember ever seeing one or a photo?
I would expect hitler to have signed the original/early awardee's doccuments and the auto pen signature to have been used on later issues. There were several thousand.
I would also expect to see the medal nr on the doccument since the medals had a serial nr stamped on the back. My Blut Ordern us in the 2000 range if I remember right.
This purports to be Himlers award doccument and I can not see that being machine signed.
Dean

[Irish Brigade]

Had a request from a member for more pics more pictures.Camera made the signature a little yellow.The photo of the dates are from the back of the frame from the business who framed the item(s)

THe member stated he had owned Fricks Blood Order and this one looked like his original.

Irish

[Irish Brigade]

Have had a couple resonses to this privately.Both have made offers and want to buy this and stated its correct.According to one reply the signature is correct as AH didnt sign any of them by hand.He bases this on the fifteen Orders he owns.The other contact said it was identical to one he owned that belonged to Frick.Take this for what its worth.I have asked both parties to post a reply here and they are members of the forum.They have either ignored my request for some reason or choose not to reply.Boy I thought japanese sword collectors were a secretive bunch?? Even contacted Wofe-Hardin and no reply(which doesnt surprise me).

Anyway thanks to all who have looked and continue to.

Best Wishes

Irish

[Peter U]

Hi Irish,

The problem with authenticating this type of award documents is that they are rare, it is easy to say/claim on-line that something is original but proving it is a rather more difficult in this case; so I perfectly understand why they don't want to write the conclusion down publicly.
Take for example Soldbucher there are rules and regulations for them, German unit history has been written down and on top of all that their are lots of originals around so that it is easy to compare them.
So if you post a Soldbuch on any on-line forum you bound to get a quick and decently explained answer on authenticity.
In the case of this type of document you don't tend to get a decent answer on an on-line forum but a debat, some like, other don't and the majority will follow what their friends say.

Anyway succes with your quest and if it turns out to be an original, you certainly have a very unique piece in your hands and I'll tank you for posting it here.
Cheers,
Peter

[Irish Brigade]

Hi Irish,

The problem with authenticating this type of award documents is that they are rare, it is easy to say/claim on-line that something is original but proving it is a rather more difficult in this case; so I perfectly understand why they don't want to write the conclusion down publicly.
Take for example Soldbucher there are rules and regulations for them, German unit history has been written down and on top of all that their are lots of originals around so that it is easy to compare them.
So if you post a Soldbuch on any on-line forum you bound to get a quick and decently explained answer on authenticity.
In the case of this type of document you don't tend to get a decent answer on an on-line forum but a debat, some like, other don't and the majority will follow what their friends say.

Anyway succes with your quest and if it turns out to be an original, you certainly have a very unique piece in your hands and I'll tank you for posting it here.
Cheers,
Peter


Thanks Peter.

Im thinking its more so they dont want to tip their hand. and or create compition.Both have tried to purchase it.I just feel Im getting played.Both contacted me and I didnt portray it as original,only looking for opinions.With the heated and some what frequent emails it gave the item validation.I have been forth right and honest and was hoping for the same as I only asked for them to post a reply.Have had a serious offer and I believe I may now pass as I dont like the idea of not posting a reply when I asked.Their choice but I guess I call it an honesty check.Just me and how I operate.I dont go for the games.Thanks again

:sorry:

[JonFish]

I believe the document to be real,based on other originals. I was one guy who has been talking to the owner about the document,I hadn't posted on the forum as of yet and apologise for that. It had not occured to me that it would show my hand or any other type of thing.I'm a straight shooter and don't play games,indeed I have sold 2 items from my collection so I can keep my end of a pending deal.
I apologise if I failed to reply to the thread, I don't recall being asked to.
The 1st pattern Blood order had 2 award documents,this large and plain looking one and a small brown linen one. The brown linen one had to be carried on the person at all times to prove he was entitled to wear the Blood order and had the owners photo and signiture on.This one was presumably for display.
The second pattern blood order also had 2 documents, a small red linen one again to be carried on the holders person,again with photo.And a large formal document in a red folder,a very grand affair with all the pomp you would expect for an award like this. Why the first patterns document was so plain- who knows? I certainly don't.
Hope this fills in a few blanks for readers of this thread.

[denny gaither]

Hi Irish,
Although I appreciate unique historical items such as yours, I confine myself more to the firearms area. I really have no deep knowledge of Blood Orders and their affiliated items other than a passive interest. However, I have followed many BO threads and conversations on various military-related web-sites and have come to respect Jon Fish (with nearly 4,000 postings) for his deep and sincere interest in this area of collecting. He enjoys an excellent reputation in the WAC collecting community and has always been very open and helpful with his sharing of information to others. He posts under his own name rather than an alias, as many do.
Although I have never met the man, I personally would be comfortable dealing with him. I am certain the reason he has never posted here is because the man probably knows as much about German weapons as I do about Blood Orders and Golden Party Badges - next to nothing!
Just my 2¢ - sticking my nose into something I have no stake in, is none of my business, and I'm not even a politician! :facepalm:
Give the man a chance!