Archaeology vs Grave Robbing

Archaeology vs Grave Robbing

I hope these pics are legit archaeology pictures vs grave robbing.

If they are grave robbers, I see they don’t mind picking from each side. Sad thing is that it must be tempting; especially when they can find high grade items like the SS ring etc and they can probably turn these items around by selling to western collectors for huge mark ups.

The pics are also a sad reminder of where most of our collectables came from, especially if you own an RC. Even if that K98 was surrendered to the Soviets by a living solider, he probably didn’t make it home.

You see lots of "ground dug items" for sale on many internet sites.
Helmets, Dog Tags, Belt Buckles. All Pitted and Rusty.

SS and $$!!!

Just Follow the Money.

Not to stir a political debate, but while the vast majority were simple soldiers, they were also invaders. Some were even doing very bad things to those Russian peasants and civilians. I don't think grave desecration of any kind is OK, but if those peasants and their progeny are less then reverent about German war dead I can understand why. Back in the day those Russian farmers plowing battlefields were about as concerned with German remains and gear as cow or dog bones.

grave digging..

Not much different than uncovering tut's tomb. Except that was suppose to be for science.
it comes down to money. If people stopped buying that stuff, there would be no reason to did it up. I do think I'd enjoy fishing with a magnet and pulling up a g43 or other trinkets.. Saw that on the g/k forum..

What if you fished with a magnet and found a teller mine?

uh,

never thought of that,,,,maybe fry it up southern style???? you boys will eat anything

Cajun Style!

Looks to me like this is straight up grave robbing. I dont think a Archaeologist would care about posing a SS ring for the picture. These remains are simply laid out on the grass, with no tarp under them...or any indication of care. The photographer seems more concerned about taking pics of the war booty than documenting the grave site. From the looks of it, it looks like it all came from a peat bog. I havent heard of too many Achaeologists or organizations that would seek out war graves in peat bogs unless it was a known grave site. Somebody had to use a metal detector to find where these men layed. The real reason for finding these guys we will never truely know, just assume.

A wallet, Coin, Ring, cleaning kit spoon, NCO shoulder boards with Cyphers. Obviously he was a SS NCO issued a K98.

Remarkable the conidition everything is in, almost too creepy...too fresh. Erie to see all the belongings with it.

Interesting and humbling pictures. I hope they ALL have had a proper burial.

The fun one can have with a metal detector!


Tons of stuff has been coming from Russian soil since the iron curtain fell down, the soil there, specially in the swamps is a good preserver.
Btw they don't only find 3R related items but also Viking stuff for example, just check out metal detector websites.

Of course this is all the work of amateurs.
A lot of these amateur sell the objects they find to fund their hobby.


This amateur digs are a double edged sword.
If those amateurs wouldn't dig those things up, they would just rot away; but if these amateurs dig them up the objects often lose their historical intrest and indeed what do they do with the humain remains.


Then the question of human remains on display.
How much time should a body spend under the ground before it can go in a display?
...
An example.
War tourism started in the 19th century after the battle of Waterloo.
For many years tourist have been watching the skeleton of a (French) soldier that was KIA during the battle of Waterloo, in the small museum that is made in Napoleon's last HQ.
http://www.helium.com/items/1902161-a-visitors-guide-to-napoleons-last-headquarters-waterloobelgium
In France you can visit the battle of Verdun memorial and their the human remains can be seen stacked up.

Sorry to say but I don't know anybody that feels offended by this, but when it comes to WW2 period or Waffen SS humain remains.....


I also want to mention that this doesn't only happen in Russia but on every battlefield or crashside in Europe.


Cheers,
Peter


PS: If you are against this you can only hope that these metal detectorers find an unexploded shell or mine and blow themselfs up, because that is the risk you take when you go metal detecting on those battlefields.

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I cant blame them.. I live in ole n.e. usa as kids we use to dig bottles. All the houses use to have old dumping grounds and we would dig bottles for a hobby. Old cork stopper types. I still have some. Over there.. you whole back yard or all of parts of europe was a battle field. Finding stuff in the back yard would be kinda fun.. There are pleanty of guys over here who use metal detectors on civil war battlefields and dig for war booty... Same type of thing I guess..

Interesting points from all members of the forum. I do some metal detecting myself, but mostly in Canada and the US and mostly for coins and jewellery. I have often thought about bringing my metal detector to Europe and seeing what I might find, but I always thought that people might frown on the idea. Many people consider battle fields as holy places and hollowed ground.

There is a good show done by the BBC/History Channel (Canadian Version) that does legitimate digs at WWI and WWII battle fields. Quite often if documentation is found such as soldiers pay book etc they are often able to identify the solider and sometimes are even able to return personnel effects to distant relatives. More than often on the WWI digs all they find are bone fragments which leave identification as impossible.

Sometimes even if all they find are regimental collar badges; the number of dead, the area where they are found is all they need in narrowing down through reports the names of the soldiers. Then through DNA testing they can sometimes identify individuals within the group and have even been successful in finding living relatives.

Sometimes in their early digs, looters would often come in with metal detectors in the night, stealing evidence that very well may have made a soldier "Known Unto God" in to a know soldier who would finally be given proper burial rights versus being rolled into a shell hole.

All the remains are returned to corresponding Grave Commissions, whether it is German, Canadian, British, French, etal.

Several places in Russia do have peat soil which is very good at preserving materials. Amazing to see that after 65 years how most of the kit (bayonet, Y-Straps, K98 pouch, boots etc.) are in such great condition.

It's the same scenario as when the Egyptian Pyramids were looted for the treasure many years ago.

Greed and Human nature probably will never change.

Maybe for some it puts food on the table.

With the Unknown Buried Explosives Factor, Hardly worth losing your legs, arms or your life searching for a buried Capture Screw!

To be honest, if I had access to WWII battlefields, I'd probably be out there digging around too....there have been tons of really cool stuff dug up out there. Finding actual bodies is creepy.

There is of course a ton of this going on in Russia...some apparently are respectful of the bodies, and do actually call in authorities to try to identify bodies (not likely), and then properly inter them. But many are simply in it as has been said, for the buck. They strip what they think they can make some money on, then dump the rest and the bodies back in the hole.

I do think its pretty disrespectful to display the bones of these men like they were so much trash or a macabre backdrop like these guys do....doesn't matter what the nationality. If these unearthed casualties were American, and were displayed as in these photos I wonder what the thoughts would be then....

I don't have a problem with digging up military equipment and selling it. But I draw the line with personal items, they don't belong to the finder. These items could help id the person and if possible should be passed on to a relative or reburied with the person. If the item can't be traced to an individual body then display it or what ever. Respect the body as if it were one of your loved ones.

As usual, most people have the right attitude with remains of soldiers and contact the local authorities, in any country. You are lucky if the remains can be identified but most of time the army or even unit can.

Here is an interesting example.

Its now unusual to find human remains from WWI in France but we still find unexploded shells and bombs which are really dangerous.
Regarding WWII, its the US bombs which are the most commonly found.
This explains why in certain places it is forbidden to use a metal detector.

All in all, metal detection can be a dangerous hobby here.

Indeed most amateur diggers are decent people and they will contact the authorities when they find humain remains.
The problem in Russia is the hugh number of unburied and unidentified war victims.
When the Sovjets liberated their country they destroyed all German wargraves/cemeteries, now the German wargraves association is busy with trying to restore the German wargraves; on top of that comes the hugh number of MIA presumed KIA soldiers and also Stalin wasn't really intrested in his own soldiers to say the least, so this is the result: amateur diggers in Russia that are regularly finding unburied human remains.
Their simply is no budget to professionally research all those humain remains from WW2 that are still found in Russian soil.

Alas I as a Belgian can show you also neglected wargraves.


P