Kar98a Police Sniper Rifle
- Thread starter vaughn99
- Start date
V, you come across these occasionally but they are all bogus (imo). At least so far..
Hello Simson,
thanks for the info but do you mean they really do exist but hard to find real examples or is this something that was never a Reichweir assembled used sniper and is a post war (WWI or WWII) hoax all around and is a collectors community made up sniper??
thanks
vaughn
thanks for the info but do you mean they really do exist but hard to find real examples or is this something that was never a Reichweir assembled used sniper and is a post war (WWI or WWII) hoax all around and is a collectors community made up sniper??
thanks
vaughn
I do not believe they were made, used or existed 1907-1945, - the Germans did not use the Kar98a as a base for sniper service. In my opinion anyway, - never seen a period picture of one or seen one that wasn't an obvious bogus put together.
Actually it is rather rare to even find pictures of interwar period use. I know of only one really, and it belongs to an advanced collector in Germany, hard to tell if its an Gew.98 or Kar98b as the sling arrangement is not shown well, and both the Gew.98 sniper rigs and the Kar.98b both have the bent bolt. It has a tangent r/s though.
Anyway, of course it is impossible to say anything with certainty but I would be extremely cautious of any sniper rifle from the Imperial-Weimar era, especially a Kar98a.
Not saying you should discount it altogether- just follow the golden rule, - the rifle must prove itself, and do not get caught making excuses for things that seem odd?
Actually it is rather rare to even find pictures of interwar period use. I know of only one really, and it belongs to an advanced collector in Germany, hard to tell if its an Gew.98 or Kar98b as the sling arrangement is not shown well, and both the Gew.98 sniper rigs and the Kar.98b both have the bent bolt. It has a tangent r/s though.
Anyway, of course it is impossible to say anything with certainty but I would be extremely cautious of any sniper rifle from the Imperial-Weimar era, especially a Kar98a.
Not saying you should discount it altogether- just follow the golden rule, - the rifle must prove itself, and do not get caught making excuses for things that seem odd?
MauserWerke
Member
I agree with Simpson. To expound on his comment, there is no evidence that the Police's role/mission, wartime or peacetime, nor their doctrine, would have employed snipers in any capacity.
Thanks both,
The reason I am asking is kind of a 3 fold process. 1, I to thought due to the Germans own words of how they fell behind on sniper rifles and really didn't restart the program till the late 20’s, early 30's roughly this was a farce. 2ndly, I found a rather messed up Kar98a. Since I heard about this so called sniper, I thought while this action is available I would inquire about it. Since I am building a repro WWII sniper collection (still collecting parts as usuall). Now I have added a WWI gew98 and with my disease spreading I would have liked to add one of these so called Police Kar98a Snipers if it were true since i had this new candidate. 3rd, and lastly I found a WWI M95 Reichert sniper scope stripped of it mounts but evidence is still present of it former sniper use and said man I have about 60% of what i needed why not, but the last 40% will be almost impossible to get and wanted to know if it should sell what I have or wait for the mounts on a SOMEDAY hopes?? But by the sounds of it they never existed I am not into just making a sniper out of anything unless at 1 point and time there was a rifle that existed. Thanks for all your help!!! You saved me a ton of money and time
LOL
Later
Vaughn
The reason I am asking is kind of a 3 fold process. 1, I to thought due to the Germans own words of how they fell behind on sniper rifles and really didn't restart the program till the late 20’s, early 30's roughly this was a farce. 2ndly, I found a rather messed up Kar98a. Since I heard about this so called sniper, I thought while this action is available I would inquire about it. Since I am building a repro WWII sniper collection (still collecting parts as usuall). Now I have added a WWI gew98 and with my disease spreading I would have liked to add one of these so called Police Kar98a Snipers if it were true since i had this new candidate. 3rd, and lastly I found a WWI M95 Reichert sniper scope stripped of it mounts but evidence is still present of it former sniper use and said man I have about 60% of what i needed why not, but the last 40% will be almost impossible to get and wanted to know if it should sell what I have or wait for the mounts on a SOMEDAY hopes?? But by the sounds of it they never existed I am not into just making a sniper out of anything unless at 1 point and time there was a rifle that existed. Thanks for all your help!!! You saved me a ton of money and time
LOLLater
Vaughn
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Offhand, I do not recall the restrictions on sniper rifles by the Versailles Treaty. You should have the latest MRJ anyday now V, as you were in the first batch that mailed Thursday, and I covered some of the larger issues of the Versailles Treaty - the treaty was beyond excessive, reaching into the pathetic nitpicking small details- so it is possible sniper rifles were covered but I do not recollect such on sniper rifles?
Regardless, the Germans after 1927 increasingly ignored the treaty, and after 1931 there was nothing to ignore for all practical purposes. By 1931 the Kar98a would have been less than standard for the German Army, and I doubt they would have used it as a foundation for a sniper rifle program. Perhaps as you say the Police but still unlikely imo, as there was only 2-3 Police types in 1931, the Bahnshutz, and the two regular type police authorized by the treaty.
There had been numerous issues over the German attempts to set up a "state" police organization (which in French eyes violated the effective clauses of the treaty), and offhand I do not recall what changes came about but all in all I really have my doubts about a Police sniper rifle program.
There are others more experienced on the interwar period and maybe CB can comment, as if anyone knows it would be he, - I just do not think it likely from what I have read and seen.
Just be careful.
Regardless, the Germans after 1927 increasingly ignored the treaty, and after 1931 there was nothing to ignore for all practical purposes. By 1931 the Kar98a would have been less than standard for the German Army, and I doubt they would have used it as a foundation for a sniper rifle program. Perhaps as you say the Police but still unlikely imo, as there was only 2-3 Police types in 1931, the Bahnshutz, and the two regular type police authorized by the treaty.
There had been numerous issues over the German attempts to set up a "state" police organization (which in French eyes violated the effective clauses of the treaty), and offhand I do not recall what changes came about but all in all I really have my doubts about a Police sniper rifle program.
There are others more experienced on the interwar period and maybe CB can comment, as if anyone knows it would be he, - I just do not think it likely from what I have read and seen.
Just be careful.
Thanks both,
The reason I am asking is kind of a 3 fold process. 1, I to thought due to the Germans own words of how they fell behind on sniper rifles and really didn't restart the program till the late 20’s, early 30's roughly this was a farce. 2ndly, I found a rather messed up Kar98a. Since I heard about this so called sniper, I thought while this action is available I would inquire about it. Since I am building a repro WWII sniper collection (still collecting parts as usuall). Now I have added a WWI gew98 and with my disease spreading I would have liked to add one of these so called Police Kar98a Snipers if it were true since i had this new candidate. 3rd, and lastly I found a WWI M95 Reichert sniper scope stripped of it mounts but evidence is still present of it former sniper use and said man I have about 60% of what i needed why not, but the last 40% will be almost impossible to get and wanted to know if it should sell what I have or wait for the mounts on a SOMEDAY hopes?? But by the sounds of it they never existed I am not into just making a sniper out of anything unless at 1 point and time there was a rifle that existed. Thanks for all your help!!! You saved me a ton of money and time
Later
Vaughn
gew98
Well-known member
V ; Years ago before the days of Gunboards there was a load of these some fella had and everyone he pictured on the net was a cobbled together sloppy job. I have never seen a document nor period pictutre that even implies a 98a was in any way ever scoped out for police/military use.
I have handled and owned a handfull of post WW1 98a's that were scoped commercially - all were in sporter wood and one I know resurfaced restocked as an original "armorer renumbered" job a short spell later.
At that time the talk got rather vicious from the guy with a couple of these humpers and some of his cohorts that just could not fathom such a rifle's nonexhistance - they bought into it way too much and literally. Those were the days when jensen was god as well as the author of backboner.
I have handled and owned a handfull of post WW1 98a's that were scoped commercially - all were in sporter wood and one I know resurfaced restocked as an original "armorer renumbered" job a short spell later.
At that time the talk got rather vicious from the guy with a couple of these humpers and some of his cohorts that just could not fathom such a rifle's nonexhistance - they bought into it way too much and literally. Those were the days when jensen was god as well as the author of backboner.
Bill G. asked me to comment on this thread, from an historical perspective I guess. Asking this question in the Imperial Era forum is problematic. There were of course no scoped rifles used by Imperial era German police troops. The Kar 88 seemed to be the singular rifle used by any police forces in the period. Some are found with L.G. for the Landes Gendarmerie. But modern G 98 or Kar 98a was not employed by Imperial police forces.
Sennich's book on snipers includes a chapter that states that Weimar era police forces adopted the scoped rifle (Kar 98a) for used during the increasing civil unrest that marked the clashes of Red and Brown street armies. A very interesting hypothesis, but he fails to provide any documentation to substantiate these claims.And photo evidence like this of a demonstration in Berlin seems to indicate that the standard K98a was used by police monitoring the crowd situation. No scopes are mentioned in the various listing of Prussian police weapons and accessories in service. Nor is mention of a scoped rifle found in the training manual of the Bavarian Bereitschaftspolize from the mid 1930s. That accounts for almost 80% of Weimar era police forces.
Documentation does exist that the III Reich police provided training material in the use and are of a KZF (Karabinerzielfernrohr) that was pictured and discussed in their training manual "Waffen- und Schiesstechnischer Leitfaden fur die Ordnungspolizei" written by Karl Fischer and published for police use in 5 editions from 1940 through 1944. Pictured are both a schematic of a scope and a photo of one in a short side-rail mount. The scope is a P. Kohler maker. Sennich pictures this photo in his book. As Sennich writes, the scope was to carry the serial number of the associated rifle. Only a 98K was mentioned to be used with this scope.
Did the III Reich era police use sniper equipment? I have found no documentation supporting this theory. I have heard of police accepted or marked sniper rifles over the years. One was in Texas I believe. I can't find my records of it. Police units were never fielded above regimental organization. I believe Heer sniper units were allotted to larger scale command units. So I do not see how they would function on the command scale of police regimental/battalion organization in combat. I would love to find documentaton supporting their use.
Excuse me if I misspelled his name.
Sennich's book on snipers includes a chapter that states that Weimar era police forces adopted the scoped rifle (Kar 98a) for used during the increasing civil unrest that marked the clashes of Red and Brown street armies. A very interesting hypothesis, but he fails to provide any documentation to substantiate these claims.And photo evidence like this of a demonstration in Berlin seems to indicate that the standard K98a was used by police monitoring the crowd situation. No scopes are mentioned in the various listing of Prussian police weapons and accessories in service. Nor is mention of a scoped rifle found in the training manual of the Bavarian Bereitschaftspolize from the mid 1930s. That accounts for almost 80% of Weimar era police forces.
Documentation does exist that the III Reich police provided training material in the use and are of a KZF (Karabinerzielfernrohr) that was pictured and discussed in their training manual "Waffen- und Schiesstechnischer Leitfaden fur die Ordnungspolizei" written by Karl Fischer and published for police use in 5 editions from 1940 through 1944. Pictured are both a schematic of a scope and a photo of one in a short side-rail mount. The scope is a P. Kohler maker. Sennich pictures this photo in his book. As Sennich writes, the scope was to carry the serial number of the associated rifle. Only a 98K was mentioned to be used with this scope.
Did the III Reich era police use sniper equipment? I have found no documentation supporting this theory. I have heard of police accepted or marked sniper rifles over the years. One was in Texas I believe. I can't find my records of it. Police units were never fielded above regimental organization. I believe Heer sniper units were allotted to larger scale command units. So I do not see how they would function on the command scale of police regimental/battalion organization in combat. I would love to find documentaton supporting their use.
Excuse me if I misspelled his name.
Attachments
I agree Bill, never seen one even remotely believable... and most of their owners take it personal if you critique the rifles legitimacy.
I appreciate your comments Joe, - great insight and all I can say is what I have seen in period pictures and surviving examples support your comments.
I appreciate your comments Joe, - great insight and all I can say is what I have seen in period pictures and surviving examples support your comments.
