Mauser Banner Standard Modell Waffenamt 655

[bill grist]

Mauser Banner Waffenamt 655.........BILL

[bill grist]

And a little bit more...........

[Turbo Archie]

Not sure what I'm looking at but man is that nice!!!!





..

[Hambone]

TA, that's a rare Standard Modell / DRP type diverted/accepted for German military (Heer) use. I think I've seen one other. Thanks for sharing that rifle Bill. Pic stickied.

[Beswick]

Very nice, I like it alot.

[Loewe]

Very nice rifle, some details that might help..

Our database is very limited, both in size and detail to make any firm statements. To few report their rifles and those that do rarely provide complete information. However there are some things that are known and with what has been reported/observed we can make some reasonably accurate speculation.

This is a late Standard-Modell, which as Craig says has military acceptance. This rifle (B82143) is one of the later ones, the earliest with an military acceptance is a B77xxx and it has a 1937 military coded barrel on it (most later B prefix SM have military barrels, probably because they were making the 98k and it was more cost effective to just use one source- verses a separate one for commercial rifles- the DRP rifles have commercial marked barrels because MO wasn’t making barrels for the military in 1933). Obviously e/655 was not in use in 1937-1938 so these might just be rifles in inventory sold to the Army at the start of the war? Not all of the late Standard-Modells (in this B77xxx – B83xxx range) have the military acceptance pattern so not all went to the Army, but at least some rifles starting in the B77xxx range did.

Some background- In 1929 the Standard-Modell lost the trials to a shortened version of the Kar98b, and this was to become the Kar.98k (the origins of the Kar98k was this shortened 98b rifle, not the Standard-Modell or Mauser Banner K) - Original SM foreign sales date to 1930/31 and have a straight bolt, these last well into 1937, during 1937 they seem to start adding these bent bolts to the typical B prefix SM rifles (retaining the bottom sling arrangement), probably to make it more appealing for military/police type sales or because of practicality, - by 1937/38 when these seem to show up they were making the 98k and it would have been a hassle to have different parts in production?

In 1933 Mauser introduced the “Mauser Banner K” for sale to government agencies (DR/DRP- some to SA/SS). I believe this was because the Reichsheer was in the process of adopting the shortened Kar98b and obviously the Railway and Postal authorities would have preferred a version of the new style for their police forces contract.

Anyway, I did not cover much of this in the Mar/09 MRJ article as it was primarily focused on the 1933/34 Mauser Banner K and the circumstances and events that created them. (including much on the Reichsbahn / Bahnschutz and Reichspost / Postschutz organizations).

If anyone else has a Standard-Modell or Mauser Banner K, consider reporting the rifle? Barrel coding is very important, especially on early Standard-Modell’s and Mauser Banner K as very few have been documented.


Not sure what I'm looking at but man is that nice!!!!





..

[mauser99]

As a side note not mentioned by s.s. is mauser's short lived e/655 was used in 40/41 only. so that is the only dated link to inspection of this rifle... As read in b.b.o.w. Some export rifle shipments were not fullfilled as german military demand went up. And its not uncommon to see leftover Banner/standard modell receivers in straight up k98 trim..

[Gunther]

Very nice rifle, some details that might help..

Our database is very limited, both in size and detail to make any firm statements. To few report their rifles and those that do rarely provide complete information. However there are some things that are known and with what has been reported/observed we can make some reasonably accurate speculation.

This is a late Standard-Modell, which as Craig says has military acceptance. This rifle (B82143) is one of the later ones, the earliest with an military acceptance is a B77xxx and it has a 1937 military coded barrel on it (most later B prefix SM have military barrels, probably because they were making the 98k and it was more cost effective to just use one source- verses a separate one for commercial rifles- the DRP rifles have commercial marked barrels because MO wasn’t making barrels for the military in 1933). Obviously e/655 was not in use in 1937-1938 so these might just be rifles in inventory sold to the Army at the start of the war? Not all of the late Standard-Modells (in this B77xxx – B83xxx range) have the military acceptance pattern so not all went to the Army, but at least some rifles starting in the B77xxx range did.

Some background- In 1929 the Standard-Modell lost the trials to a shortened version of the Kar98b, and this was to become the Kar.98k (the origins of the Kar98k was this shortened 98b rifle, not the Standard-Modell or Mauser Banner K) - Original SM foreign sales date to 1930/31 and have a straight bolt, these last well into 1937, during 1937 they seem to start adding these bent bolts to the typical B prefix SM rifles (retaining the bottom sling arrangement), probably to make it more appealing for military/police type sales or because of practicality, - by 1937/38 when these seem to show up they were making the 98k and it would have been a hassle to have different parts in production?

In 1933 Mauser introduced the “Mauser Banner K” for sale to government agencies (DR/DRP- some to SA/SS). I believe this was because the Reichsheer was in the process of adopting the shortened Kar98b and obviously the Railway and Postal authorities would have preferred a version of the new style for their police forces contract.

Anyway, I did not cover much of this in the Mar/09 MRJ article as it was primarily focused on the 1933/34 Mauser Banner K and the circumstances and events that created them. (including much on the Reichsbahn / Bahnschutz and Reichspost / Postschutz organizations).

If anyone else has a Standard-Modell or Mauser Banner K, consider reporting the rifle? Barrel coding is very important, especially on early Standard-Modell’s and Mauser Banner K as very few have been documented.

I realize this is an old posting but I just ran across it today and joined the forum. If the poster, SimsonSuhl, is still researching barrel codings, I have a Mauser banner Model 1933 Mauser Standard Modell Carbine made in 1934, s/n 90###. If you're still interested, I'd be happy to relay any information you're looking for to forward your research. In case it matters, this rifle has 95%+ original finish and appears to be completely original. I purchased it at a gun show, so unfortunately I do not have any history on how it came to the US.....

[jack944]

I realize this is an old posting but I just ran across it today and joined the forum. If the poster, SimsonSuhl, is still researching barrel codings, I have a Mauser banner Model 1933 Mauser Standard Modell Carbine made in 1934, s/n 90###. If you're still interested, I'd be happy to relay any information you're looking for to forward your research. In case it matters, this rifle has 95%+ original finish and appears to be completely original. I purchased it at a gun show, so unfortunately I do not have any history on how it came to the US.....

Wow I missed this one last year....must have been sleeping that week....:hail:

[bruce98k]

As far as my research indicates, Mauser was not even involved in export rifle production in 1929 and the Standard Modell didn't exist as a product until 1931 when
the development was driven by current business with China and the opportunity to compete against Brno and FN.

Certainly more investigation into the testing of the shortened kar98b is warranted but that is Farbs turf.

To date I nor Jon has uncovered any evidence of Mauser involvement with that project.

As far as Bill's rifle is concerned, its a very cool factory modified SM, likely done in 1941. I believe that both
the diversion of Banner receivers into standard K98k production late in 1941, and the conversions of some Standard Modells
were likely concurrent.

[Loewe]

Yes, still researching and compiling BC'ing, among other things.

For the SM/Mauser Banner K database, I am trending the siderail markings, whether it has a diamond at the serial, how the bolt is serialed, the barrel shoulder "Ch.#" the gage number on the barrel (should be 156.14), any barrel coding (SM have them usually), whether it has a take down in the stock, any stock markings (in your range they usually aren't) and anything unusual about the rifle or how it is marked.

Many of these things are typical, not important for every variation, but for completeness I track them all because some SM/MBK it does matter. Currently I am tracking 8 variations to this theme.

BTW, I would need more of the serial, at least the 3 first digits, as that is how they are organized. I have half a dozen 90xxx rifles and need to place it within that group.

Thanks


I realize this is an old posting but I just ran across it today and joined the forum. If the poster, SimsonSuhl, is still researching barrel codings, I have a Mauser banner Model 1933 Mauser Standard Modell Carbine made in 1934, s/n 90###. If you're still interested, I'd be happy to relay any information you're looking for to forward your research. In case it matters, this rifle has 95%+ original finish and appears to be completely original. I purchased it at a gun show, so unfortunately I do not have any history on how it came to the US.....

[Gunther]

Yes, still researching and compiling BC'ing, among other things.

For the SM/Mauser Banner K database, I am trending the siderail markings, whether it has a diamond at the serial, how the bolt is serialed, the barrel shoulder "Ch.#" the gage number on the barrel (should be 156.14), any barrel coding (SM have them usually), whether it has a take down in the stock, any stock markings (in your range they usually aren't) and anything unusual about the rifle or how it is marked.

Many of these things are typical, not important for every variation, but for completeness I track them all because some SM/MBK it does matter. Currently I am tracking 8 variations to this theme.

BTW, I would need more of the serial, at least the 3 first digits, as that is how they are organized. I have half a dozen 90xxx rifles and need to place it within that group.

Thanks

A lack of thoroughness when conducting research generally yields data that's marginally useful at best or downright misleading at worst, so your requests are perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, I do not have the knowledge or level of expertise to be a proper research assistant, so please bear with me as I muddle through this. The S/N is 90352 followed by a diamond. The bolt is serialed 0352. I have attached four jpgs that should provide you with the side rail marking data you're looking for. There are no external stock markings that I've detected but I have not disassembled it yet. I'll work on that this weekend. Let me know what other information I can provide.

[bruce98k]

Excellent late series 1934 Banner, close to the end of production.
Normally devoid of any external markings this late.

[Gunther]

Excellent late series 1934 Banner, close to the end of production.
Normally devoid of any external markings this late.

Thanks Bruce. I would appreciate any additional information about this rifle that can be determined from the markings in the pictures. I'm not an expert, so it won't take much to tell me more than I already know. :hail: All I know is what I've read in the Mauser Manifesto which has just enough information to make you want more. Also, I need to add this rifle to the rider on my home-owners policy. Any recommendations for an amount it should be insure for?

[bruce98k]

Here are 2 pages from the Banner section detailing the late series Banner K.

[vaughn99]

Hello Bruce,

I have 2 other serials for your 1934 banner C suffix so i doubled your observation lot LOL. if you send email they are probably small enough to attach

C11088
C11373 Gr.B.B.


B80082 E/655 top receiver
B82231 E/655 top recevier

highest Banner 1934 ser94872 No Diamond proof

[bruce98k]

PM sent.

thanks,
B.

Also my GrBB data base has C11373 and C12052 (Stock only).
The C11088 is a new one. Again, mucho appreciated.

Oops - I assumed that the first was GrBB - is that just a plain
C prefix series 1934 Banner?

[Gunther]

Here are 2 pages from the Banner section detailing the late series Banner K.

What is the significance of the B, G and U stamps on the receiver?

[Loewe]

CB quoting Gerhard Wirnsberger, BESCHUSSZEICHEN

crown/U= final proof; always accompanied by:
crown/B = gun proofed in finished state
crown/G = proof for rifled barrels
crown/N = proofed with nitrocellulose powder


What is the significance of the B, G and U stamps on the receiver?

[Loewe]

Same thoughts on C11088, also any more details on the B80082?


PM sent.

thanks,
B.

Also my GrBB data base has C11373 and C12052 (Stock only).
The C11088 is a new one. Again, mucho appreciated.

Oops - I assumed that the first was GrBB - is that just a plain
C prefix series 1934 Banner?

[Loewe]

I'd like to get the "Ch" number on the barrel shoulder, plus "ANYTHING" marked with an S28 marking would be nice.. not likely but you never know. (SM/MBK parts sometimes have an S28 marking on them, front bands, but other parts are possible, anyone with a SM/MBK do look your rifle over closely for any such markings. Usually located in out of the way locations on the part, in not readily noticeable locations- underneath is common)

This is part of a working theory, that developed during a phone call with Bruce, and I have run this past Joe Steen and Ken Huddle and I am kind of waiting their thoughts- Ken seemed less convinced, but I await his detailed notes!

Jon Speed is not the only high-end researcher lurking, keeping us on our toes, we have a couple that I get correspondence from with thoughts to our postings. Which I sometimes post in the MRJ, - and will here as well.

Oh, rifle value, Bruce is the guy who would know best, but I would think $3k plus, replacement value (matching-original)


Thanks Bruce. I would appreciate any additional information about this rifle that can be determined from the markings in the pictures. I'm not an expert, so it won't take much to tell me more than I already know. :hail: All I know is what I've read in the Mauser Manifesto which has just enough information to make you want more. Also, I need to add this rifle to the rider on my home-owners policy. Any recommendations for an amount it should be insure for?

[Gunther]

I'd like to get the "Ch" number on the barrel shoulder, plus "ANYTHING" marked with an S28 marking would be nice.. not likely but you never know. (SM/MBK parts sometimes have an S28 marking on them, front bands, but other parts are possible, anyone with a SM/MBK do look your rifle over closely for any such markings. Usually located in out of the way locations on the part, in not readily noticeable locations- underneath is common)

This is part of a working theory, that developed during a phone call with Bruce, and I have run this past Joe Steen and Ken Huddle and I am kind of waiting their thoughts- Ken seemed less convinced, but I await his detailed notes!

Jon Speed is not the only high-end researcher lurking, keeping us on our toes, we have a couple that I get correspondence from with thoughts to our postings. Which I sometimes post in the MRJ, - and will here as well.

Oh, rifle value, Bruce is the guy who would know best, but I would think $3k plus, replacement value (matching-original)

Thank you for the additional info. I disassembled the rifle and took pics of the other markings I could find. The hand guard and stock wood are both identically marked. They have a P to the right of the rifle's serial number and a B to the left. There's also a G on the stock under the trigger guard. The bands have no markings that I could find. I think the rest of the markings show up pretty well in the pics below. I hope this helps. If you could explain what these mean, I would greatly appreciate it!

[Loewe]

You did not see a "ch" followed by a number on the barrel shoulder?

The markings are for the most part, probably, just internal assembly markings, meaning lost to us today, but probably meant something to those who assembled the rifles. The markings that are known are the proofing, which I posted about earlier, the proofs are usually on the barrel and receiver and mean the same things. Much like the acceptance stamps on the right receiver are applied to the barrel for the same purpose, accepting certain steps being done.

The 156.14 is a gage of a 7,92mm barrel, and is part of a confusing-technical process Joe Steen once outlined in a correspondence (published in MRJ) in reply to my article on the DRP MBK.


Thank you for the additional info. I disassembled the rifle and took pics of the other markings I could find. The hand guard and stock wood are both identically marked. They have a P to the right of the rifle's serial number and a B to the left. There's also a G on the stock under the trigger guard. The bands have no markings that I could find. I think the rest of the markings show up pretty well in the pics below. I hope this helps. If you could explain what these mean, I would greatly appreciate it!

[bruce98k]

Guys and Paul - I will post some info tonite.

These document segments published in the early 1890s dictate the bore gauge for various calibers.
Of note is the 459 designation for .22 and the 156.14 for 8 X 57.

I believe the meaning of the 459 marking on .22 sporting weapons and trainers was unknown at some point.

The factory document identifies the Ch40 code as Bohler steel, ostensibly used for MG08 barrels but used as
part of the Argentine 1933 Police carbine order. The other marking (B.J.) I will make an inquiry with Jon on.
Document is dated Feb. 22, 1933.

This pretty much nails the Ch steel code as identified to a particular steel supplier but no master list has
surfaced as part of our research and Jons backchecks in his archive.

Added 6/28 from Jon: The other steel provider on the CH 40 doc is Bismark Hutte.

[Loewe]

As usual Jon Speed and Bruce have provided the impossible!

I figured the "Ch" was related to barrel coding, but never found the connecting piece of the puzzle.

The "Ch" numbers seem to group with certain contracts, the "Ch.45" is a very commonly encountered code on the DR contract, while the "Ch40" is most common on the DRP contract (some "Ch44" here and there), the ss contracts seem to have "Ch50" & "Ch53" most common. "Ch53" shows up later too, in the unmarked MBK's, but not very common so far. Actually none are really common enough in my trends work to really make much of the "Ch" codes.

Of course the above isn't meant as anything more than a generalization of current observations, which are meager to say the least.


Guys and Paul - I will post some info tonite.

These document segments published in the early 1890s dictate the bore gauge for various calibers.
Of note is the 459 designation for .22 and the 156.14 for 8 X 57.

I believe the meaning of the 459 marking on .22 sporting weapons and trainers was unknown at some point.

The factory document identifies the Ch40 code as Bohler steel, ostensibly used for MG08 barrels but used as
part of the Argentine 1933 Police carbine order. The other marking (B.J.) I will make an inquiry with Jon on.
Document is dated Feb. 22, 1933.

This pretty much nails the Ch steel code as identified to a particular steel supplier but no master list has
surfaced as part of our research and Jons backchecks in his archive.

[bruce98k]

Paul I edited the thread on the original documents as Jon identified the 'BJ' marking.