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Normandy Camo helmet, Chicken wire helmet, Boxing Squirrels

jack944

Senior Member
Camo helmet, Chicken wire helmet, Boxing Squirrels

My buddy is a classic "picker". He goes to yard sales, house sales, auctions, you name it...He is just like Mr. Haney from Green Acres.

Every 2 or 3 days he calls and asks for my opinion on stuff he is looking at. When he told me he was looking at a Camo and Wire helmet I was prepared to burst his bubble. Thank god for I-phones. When he sent the pics I couldn't believe it. A real camo and a real chicken wire. The vet put some shellac on the wire but the camo is untouched. Two places later he picked up a great piece of folk art. Boxing Squirrels....when he sent me the pics I laughed for an hour. Check his stuff out....


I bought the camo and will be selling the wire.....and he won't sell me the Squirrels....
 

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I'm not a lid guru, but from reading other websites, I would think those lids are legit. You don't see SS decals or other attempts to make them more than what they are. What's the market price for those helmets? Thanks for posting.

Regards
 
Market

I'm not a lid guru, but from reading other websites, I would think those lids are legit. You don't see SS decals or other attempts to make them more than what they are. What's the market price for those helmets? Thanks for posting.

Regards

Yes..market...I go on what I have been offered...not what dealers have on their sites. The camo around $2500. The wire is the tough one. Without the shellac it would be above $3000.
 
I don't know that I'd refer to the camo as a "Normandy camo" which is like calling a P.08 with black resin grips a "Black Widow" ;) The German term for the dunkelgelb base with green and redbrown splotches was, I believe, "Ambush Pattern" prescribed by regulations around mid 1943. The olive green splotches over tan/dunkelgelb (these would be RLM colors on a Luft helmet) are a known pattern but showed up on all fronts.

As for chickenwire wrapped helmets, I'd never pay more than the price of the helmet plus a little adder for my own personal feelings about it without direct, unequivocal, documentation from the vet. That is because they are so easy to fake. "Euro" chickenwire is available in huge rolls cheap, or it can be found used anywhere in the Euro countryside, and regularly is. Anyone who tells you they can tell the difference between a properly executed fake chickenwire and an original is ignorant or baffled by their own BS. :)
 
I thought a clue to the chicken wire likely being legit was the fact that someone applied shellac and messed up an otherwise nice lid. Why would someone trying to fake the wire apply a sloppy coat of shellac? Did the "picker" get them from the vet's family or from another collector?
 
Correct term

I thought a clue to the chicken wire likely being legit was the fact that someone applied shellac and messed up an otherwise nice lid. Why would someone trying to fake the wire apply a sloppy coat of shellac? Did the "picker" get them from the vet's family or from another collector?

Ham is right the correct term for this one would be two tone brush camo . A true Normandy would have red also.
Yes my friend got it from the family of the veteran..yes the shellac helps it's case as being original. No humper would shellac his hard work and lessen the value.

Good news is that the wire helmet sold today to a gentlemen who is going to have the shellac removed by a restorer. He showed me a WW 1 helmet that is having the shellac removed and it is impressive. You can not tell it was ever there.
 
Glad

Are the boxing squirrels still for sale?? :)

I am glad someone appreciates the squirrels. They are from the 1920's and considered folk art. My buddy paid $200 and he won't sell them to me.
I want them for my bar in my basement.:laugh::laugh:
 
Small World

Good news is that the wire helmet sold today to a gentlemen who is going to have the shellac removed by a restorer. He showed me a WW 1 helmet that is having the shellac removed and it is impressive. You can not tell it was ever there.

Funny… I think I’m the one restoring the helmet you mentioned, unless there’s another art conservator working on a WWI camo helmet at the moment.

Mike
 
Ham is right the correct term for this one would be two tone brush camo . A true Normandy would have red also.
Yes my friend got it from the family of the veteran..yes the shellac helps it's case as being original. No humper would shellac his hard work and lessen the value.

Good news is that the wire helmet sold today to a gentlemen who is going to have the shellac removed by a restorer. He showed me a WW 1 helmet that is having the shellac removed and it is impressive. You can not tell it was ever there.

It's just that it isn't "Normandy camo". That's a waftard phrase, like "Black Widow" for a P.08 that makes P.08 collectors retch. They also coined the term "exotic freshie" for helmets that I thought were bad camo fakes, so I guess we should be thankful that a sillier term wasn't coined ;) That camo pattern was prescribed for ALL fronts at that time. It was factory prescribed at one point I believe. One day helmet collectors should start reacting to this as they do the term "Black Widow.

I'd be surprised if the shellac can be removed without any effect to the underlying paint. Mjn, would definitely like to see your work on this helmet. My impression of the subject helmet is that it is good. However, if someone paid $3k for it, then they are far more adventurous than me under the circumstances. I don't value these into the thousands as I know how easily they are faked. I guarantee that someone who knows these helmets could create one that looked exactly like the subject helmet and you could not tell them apart. Someone familiar with these could create one that would appeal to the masses as an "original" more than the original. Congrats on getting thousands for it Jack.
 
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I'd be surprised if the shellac can be removed without any effect to the underlying paint.

Varnishes are successfully removed from painted surfaces all the time, and doing so is just one aspect of my work as a fine-art paintings conservator.

I see the word "shellac" being used by collectors to describe a varnish on a helmet, but other types of resins and drying oils are commonly found. Because there are many variables, it is sometimes unsafe to remove a varnish. Success depends on the type of varnish, the binder holding the pigment together, the level of solubility of the various layers, and the age of the materials to name a few things.

Conservators often custom-tailor cleaning solutions to an individual project, creating those solutions from scratch in order to remove coatings without adversely affecting the pigment layer.

Collectors often make the mistake of thinking they can go to the store and buy a commercial product to do the same thing, and the results are usually scary.

Mike
 
Varnishes are successfully removed from painted surfaces all the time, and doing so is just one aspect of my work as a fine-art paintings conservator.

I see the word "shellac" being used by collectors to describe a varnish on a helmet, but other types of resins and drying oils are commonly found. Because there are many variables, it is sometimes unsafe to remove a varnish. Success depends on the type of varnish, the binder holding the pigment together, the level of solubility of the various layers, and the age of the materials to name a few things.

Conservators often custom-tailor cleaning solutions to an individual project, creating those solutions from scratch in order to remove coatings without adversely affecting the pigment layer.

Collectors often make the mistake of thinking they can go to the store and buy a commercial product to do the same thing, and the results are usually scary.

Mike

Mike,
That's good info. and illustrates the admonition, "kids don't try this at home" ;) I know enough, and have enough experience, to know not to do this myself and someone with your skills and experience do it. All of that makes sense. I believe most of the varnishes then were flaxseed oil based? Also, on the subject wire helmet I can't tell from the pics I was provided what exactly it is, other than dark and likely on there a long time. As such, my concern would be as you stated. I imagine a small portion could be tested to see how the overall could turn out. We'd like to see a before / after of any such projects if you ever have the time and opportunity. It's not rare for vets to varnish/shellac/seal helmets, particularly some of the camo finishes, some of which were designed and mixed to allow removal.
Regards,
HB
 
I believe most of the varnishes then were flaxseed oil based?

Yes, flaxseed oil (better known as linseed oil) is the most common drying oil varnish I encounter, but it should never be used as a varnish on a painted surface where reversibility is important (although it often has been used). It will crosslink over time, making it difficult and sometimes impossible to safely remove from a paint layer. Resin varnishes are more appropriate for painted surfaces that need protection, but there can be reversibility issues with some resins as well. Of course, there is rarely a good reason for a collector to varnish a helmet, but we all know it’s been done. :facepalm:

We'd like to see a before / after of any such projects if you ever have the time and opportunity.

The owner of the helmet I am working on is planning to post a thread about the restoration, including photos, but I have asked him to wait until I have completed the work so I don’t get distracted. If he does that, I’ll provide a link to the information.

Mike
 
wire helmet topic

Well being a smooth paint m40 luft it should be an easier job. some lufts are rough paint and I would suspect that would be a bit harder to work with.
As far a wire helmets are concerned I cant see the price. It's an m40 luft.The most common combat helmet avail. It's a 4-5 hundred $ lid with apparently 2500.00 dollars worth of chicken wire on it.. If jack found someone to pay that "god bless him". I guess what i'm saying is if the resto goes bad luft lids are quite common !!!
 
Not only over $2k worth of wire (that you can get sheets of used wire for the cost of slowboat shipping if you have a buddy in Germany/France/Belgium/Holland; nobody would steal it), but also the gamble on whether whatever varnish/shellac/resin has been on it for so many years can be removed without damaging the paint.
 
Price

Well being a smooth paint m40 luft it should be an easier job. some lufts are rough paint and I would suspect that would be a bit harder to work with.
As far a wire helmets are concerned I cant see the price. It's an m40 luft.The most common combat helmet avail. It's a 4-5 hundred $ lid with apparently 2500.00 dollars worth of chicken wire on it.. If jack found someone to pay that "god bless him". I guess what i'm saying is if the resto goes bad luft lids are quite common !!!

Everyone..calm down...I listed my price estimate of an unshellaced helmet.. so the actual price paid(lower) is between the buyer and me. From the responses I got on it I could have sold it for even more. Some people can't figure out why we pay $2000 for a mauser and $12,000 if it has a scope on it. :biggrin1:

And don't forget the squirrels....I see no evidence of re-tailing or tail enhancement.....
 
Everyone..calm down...I listed my price estimate of an unshellaced helmet.. so the actual price paid(lower) is between the buyer and me. From the responses I got on it I could have sold it for even more. Some people can't figure out why we pay $2000 for a mauser and $12,000 if it has a scope on it. :biggrin1:

And don't forget the squirrels....I see no evidence of re-tailing or tail enhancement.....

Nobody seems excited to me :) I collect German helmets and rifles. I can see a vast difference between paying $2000+ for a $450 helmet with chickenwire on it and $12,000 for a $2000 K98k with a factory original $2000 scope on it. With little skill and a bit more knowledge, one can get a $400 helmet and $5 worth of Eurowire and put together a wire wrap that looks just like any original sold. The same cannot be done with a K98k, scope, and mount with a great amount of skill and great amount of knowledge. That's why K98k snipers sell for $10k+ . I've seen people with more money than sense pay $3500 for "exotic freshie" camos blessed at WAF which were little more than vandalized and humped $300 marginal helmets, so not much surprises me. :biggrin1:
 
I have seen reenactors use original chicken wire on helmets. For a nominal fee you can get all the chicken wire from Europe you want, they have lots of it over there still from WW2. It's really not hard to get, so i agree- I wouldn't pay much extra for a wire helmet nowdays. Thats just me though (and anyone who is smart with their money).

Even finding one covered in shellac wouldn't ease my paranoia- once you clean the shellac it's impossible to prove when you sell it later.

Regular guys stuck that stuff on there, just like regular guys do...
 
I have seen reenactors use original chicken wire on helmets. For a nominal fee you can get all the chicken wire from Europe you want, they have lots of it over there still from WW2. It's really not hard to get, so i agree- I wouldn't pay much extra for a wire helmet nowdays. Thats just me though (and anyone who is smart with their money).

Even finding one covered in shellac wouldn't ease my paranoia- once you clean the shellac it's impossible to prove when you sell it later.

Regular guys stuck that stuff on there, just like regular guys do...

Yes, indeed European war period wire is readily available and is used by reenactors and others on helmets. The most commonly encountered real wartime wire helmets are Luftwaffe. Most reenactors do Heer or Waffen SS impressions, which helps your helmet.
 
Looks like wire on helmets became stylish in France ca. 1944 when German troops had to dress themselves and their vehicles as bushes to avoid getting hosed off by allied ground attack aircraft. :boom:

I believe the easiest and cheapest fake that can be accomplished, with the largest potential return (considering effort and materials as cost), that can be effectuated without any way to detect fakery if done properly, would be the "chickenwire camo". Some get lucky and get "real ones". Most don't.
 

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