Third Party Press

BSW & Gustloff serial #'s & stock markings S/A & others

mauser99

Senior Member
I have this over on the gunboards forum. Im going to move all the info here as time permits. As this is my new home. I will edit and condense the list to clean it up..
 
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stock markings..

Any rifles that you find with s/a or h/j markings please email or post here so I can put them in this section. I'd like to get as many different ones as I can.. thanks !
 

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Dad[s ww2 bb

I'll add Dad's bring back to your list. #219732, no bolt number, SAd.NSDAP on left side. Eagle-N only on left side of receiver.

Gustloff-Werke 22LR-b 007a.jpgGustloff-Werke 22LR-b 009a.jpgGustloff-Werke 22LR-b 013a.jpgGustloff-Werke 22LR-b 016a.jpg
 
Incredible wood

Really fantastic wood on that one!! Did the details of how your father acquired the rifle get passed along to you? Very nice and thanks for posting the pix and s/n.

-a.
 
All I know is..

Thanks. All I know is he was in the 76th Artillery Battalion during the battle of the Bulge. They went thru France, Belguim, germany and just into Checkoslovakia before the cease fire. I don't recall ever hearing exactly how he came by it. He also brought back a byf43 K98k and Walther P38. But I only got a couple of war stories out of him, but not about the guns.
 
Verified Serial Numbers

BSW KKW

Serial Number SA Gruppe MOD DESIG-BRL or REC S/N on BOLT E/N or BUG PROOF Proof LOC-L or R Soldered Base Added Markings-Location Comments
200168 REC No BUG Right Yes #27- Stock -L
200400 REC No BUG Right Yes #33- Stock-L
200507 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L
202385 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA/Unit Mk "ST21/?3"- Stock- L
204023 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L
204043 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA/Unit Mk "PI/77"- Stock- L
204114 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L # Behing Tigger Guard
204143 REC No BUG Right Yes RBD (Railway) Stamp- Stock- L
204146 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L
204229 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L
204404 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L/Unit Mk "22/22"- Stock- R
205743 REC No BUG Right Yes Sanded Stock- No Mrkgs
206206 REC No BUG Right Yes SA-Stock- L/SA Mk- Stock- R
206670 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L
207134 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L
207598 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L/Unit MK ?"III/2"- Stock- L/SA Mk-Stock- R/31/139 Stock Grip
208062 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes Bolt #- Mismatched
208526 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes
208989 REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock- L
209453 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L
209917 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- REC/Unit Mk "Jagerstanarie 1 No 186"- REC
210381 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock- L
210845 REC No BUG Right Yes
211308 REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L/Unit Mk? "23/95 4 6"-Stock- R
211772 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock- L
212236 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L/SA "Kurpfalz 1939"- BRL- Stadt Zwingenberg ADB
212700 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L/SA "Kurpfalz 1939 Landarte Worms"- BRL
213164 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock-L+ Unit Mk "P1/17"/SA "Kurpfalz 1939" Fuhrer D. Gruppe KP-BRL
213628 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock- L/SA "Kurpfalz 1939 Kreisleiter Darmstadt"- BRL
214091 REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock- L/SA "Krupfalz 1939 Werner & Mertz Mainz"- BRL
214555 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes SA- Stock- L/SA "Kurpfalz 1939"- BRL
215019 NSDAP REC No BUG Right Yes R.F.V.- Buttplate

GUST KKW

Serial Number SA Gruppe MOD DESIG-BRL or REC S/N on BOLT E/N or BUG PROOF Proof LOC-L or R Added Markings-Location
210760 NSDAP REC No BUG Right SA- Stock-L
211675 NSDAP REC No BUG Right SA- Stock-L
212002 NSDAP REC No BUG Right SA- Stock-L
213484 NSDAP REC No BUG Right SA- Stock-Unit "ST 3/1535"
213959 REC No BUG Right NSKK- LUNDEN- Stock-R
214846 NSDAP REC No BUG Right SA- Stock-L
216064 NSDAP REC No BUG Right SA- Stock-L
217722 REC No BUG Right SS?- Stock-R/ #'70'-
218058 REC No BUG Right Hitler Jugend'- Stock
218481 REC No BUG Right Hitler Jugend'- Stock-R
218519 REC No BUG Right
218530 REC No BUG Right Hitler Jugend'- Stock-R
219089 NSDAP REC No BUG Left SA- Stock-L
219850 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA- Stock-L/V Discs- Both
220381 REC No E/N Left
221435 REC No E/N Left
223920 REC No E/N Left
224395 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA- Stock-L
224441 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA/'SA ALPENLAND'-
225976 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA- Stock-L
226591 REC No E/N Left Hitler Jugend'- Stock-R
226929 REC No E/N Left "HJ/107"-Stock-L
227850 REC No E/N Left
228049 REC No E/N Left
228180 REC No E/N Left
228207 REC No E/N Left SA-Stock-L
228739 REC No E/N Left
228754 REC No E/N Left
229953 REC No E/N Left Unit mark "21/M81"- Disc
230653 REC No E/N Left British Proofs-Brl
230925 REC No E/N Left
231022 REC No E/N Left
231678 REC No E/N Left
236290 REC No E/N Left
236711 REC No E/N Left
236871 REC Yes E/N Left
237006 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA-Stock-L/
238265 REC No E/N Left
238878 NSDAP REC No E/N Left NSDAP-Stock
239240 NSDAP No E/N Left SA-Stock-L
239411 REC No E/N Left NSKK-Stock-L
240463 REC Yes E/N Left Waff/C'-Receiver-L
240471 REC Yes E/N Left Waff/C'-Receiver-L
240488 REC Yes E/N Left Eagle/C'-Receiver-L
240551 REC Yes E/N Left Waff/C'-Receiver-L
241261 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA-Stock-L
242564 REC No E/N Left ZF41 Scope Mounted
242570 REC No E/N Left
242765 REC No E/N Left
242933 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA- Stock-L
243451 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA-Stock-L/# "12"-Stock-R
243693 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA-Stock-L
244454 REC Yes E/N Left Retail mark "Waffen Jung"
244650 REC Yes E/N Left
245575 NSDAP REC Yes E/N Left SA-Stock-L
245736 NSDAP REC Yes E/N Left SA-Stock-L
248079 REC None E/N Left
248160 REC No E/N Left Hitler Jugend"-Stock-R
248544 REC Yes E/N Left
248796 REC No E/N Left Inlay-1944 date- Stock-L
248837 REC No E/N Left
249068 REC No E/N Left
249142 Sudeten REC No E/N Left Gruppe Sudeten-Stock
249516 REC No E/N Left TSTV? Label-Stock-R
250245 REC Yes E/N Left Waff/C"-Rec-L
251382 REC Yes E/N Left
252091 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA-Stock-L
252468 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA+Unit mark "17/467 8"-
252903 REC No E/N Left SA-Stock-L
254339 REC Yes E/N Left
255302 REC No E/N Left
255609 REC Yes E/N Left "Eagle L.S."-Stock-L
256489 REC Yes E/N Left
257129 REC Yes E/N Left "Fuhrerscule 1"- Stock-R
257497 REC Yes E/N Left
257904 NSDAP REC Yes E/N Left SA-Stock-L
258020 NSDAP REC No E/N Left SA-Stock-L
258961 REC Yes E/N Left
259974 NSDAP REC Yes E/N Left SA/S.A.
260568 REC Yes E/N Left Presentation
261125 REC Yes E/N Left
261574 REC Yes E/N Left
263391 REC Yes E/N Left
263465 REC Yes E/N Left
263781 REC Yes E/N Left
264707 REC Yes E/N Left
265265 REC Yes E/N Left believe start Buchwald
265370 REC Yes E/N Left WaA293-Stock-R
265499 REC No E/N Left
266072 NSDAP REC Yes E/N Left SA-Stock-L
268290 REC Yes E/N Left
268931 REC Yes E/N Left
268941 REC Yes E/N Left Waff on Rec-L
269677 REC Yes E/N Left
270379 REC Yes E/N Left Waff 749-Rec-L
270642 REC Yes E/N Left Waff 749-Rec-L,
270697 REC Yes E/N Left Waff 749-Rec-L
270909 REC Yes E/N Left Waff 749-Rec-L
270920 REC No E/N Left
271271 REC No E/N Left Waff-Rec-L/
271438 REC Yes E/N Left
272097 REC No E/N Left WeA-4-Rec
272808 REC No E/N Left Waff-Rec-L

Note: Several examples noted 273K range and one in 274K range all with WaA749 accept. Records lost in computer crash.
 
Old Article of mine

For what it's worth. Found some of my archives.

Editing is rough.

Some of this not fully substantiated and speculation on my part.

Gustloff KKW

The transition to Gustloff marked KKW’s from BSW occurred concurrent with the firm name change and is noted in the 2116XX serial number range. Between rifles SN 211625 and SN 211675. This also results in a significant point in production to aid the collector in approximate dating of examples. Further, in 1940, the new law on firing proofs was implemented changing the firing proofs from Crown BUG proofs on the right side of the barrel and receiver, to the left side and in the Eagle N format.

All production traits aforementioned relative to the BSW KKW apply to the Gustloff. As production continued, more examples without the factory applied NSDAP marking will be encountered, perhaps indicating more rifles were made available to retail firms. Fit and finish did decline as production continued into the war.

KKW production at KZ Buchenwald

In 1942, the Speer Ministry issued an order to move K98K and KKW production to the “Gustloff Werke II” Facility at Concentration Lager Buchenwald. (footnote, Backbone of the Wehrmacht Vol 1.) This facility was owned by the Schutz Staffel (SS) and leased to Gustloff Werke. (USSBS Report 160, October 1945.) The SS supplied prisoner labor for production. However, it was some time later before this was accomplished for either rifle. There is evidence that this had been accomplished by May of 1943. (Footnote Wacker’s Book, document 10 insert the translation, referring to these as a “nuisance to other weapons production) This appear to have taken place somewhere around the 267XXX serial number range. Rifles made subsequent to the move exhibit specific traits. Fit and finish decline on both wood and metal components. The rear stock band is made without the groove. This also marks the first appearance of the waffenamt WaA749 (The Wa Pruf 2 inspection team having already been established at Buchenwald for the K98K production moved there.) This waffenamt is not well stamped and difficult to read on the tail end of production (out to at least the 274XXX range). It would appear that the stamp(s) deteriorated and obvious that the worker applying the marking was not concerned. These are the only training rifles believed to have been produced or at least assembled with Concentration Camp labor. They are also the only .22 training rifles with Waffenamt markings applied in the course of production.

Some of these late Buchenwald produced KKW’s appear to have been selected for modification to the only documented version of .22 sniper trainer. Some rifles in the 269XXX to 270XXX range have a ZF41 scope mount integral with rear sight base like the K98K ZF41 sniper version. In addition to the WaA749 markings on the left side of the receiver, the stock wrists on these guns are also marked with an SU27 indicating the work may have been done at the HZA facility at Spandau. (see detail photo) That these are legimate .22 sniper trainers was further documented by Richard Law in Backbone of the Wehrmacht Vol II. See pages 132, 133, and footnote on page 189.) These are the only .22 caliber training rifle produced in a standard configuration in quantity for the expressed purpose of training snipers. (The Herman Weihrauch firm was tasked by in January of 1945 to develop a mount to adapt the ZF-4 scope to training rifles but this occurred so late in the war that is likely only a few prototypes may have been delivered.

Whether or not the components of the KKW were actually manufactured at Buchenwald or shipped there for assembly is not certain. Observation of the rifles within this range would indicate that at least some parts were made there. This is evidenced by the decline in metal and wood fit and finish. On August 24, 1944, a precision bombing raid by RAF Misquito bomers effectively destroyed all rifle production at KZ Buchenwald in the Gustloff Werke II. It is not known whether or not any Gustloff KKW’s were assembled subsequent to that event, either at Buchenwald or one of the other Gustloff Werke locations. It would appear from the latest examples noted, that no Gustloff KKW’s were produced subsequent to that event. KKW production had only taken place there for little over one year. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS Report 160) issued in October 1945, lists the quantity of KKW rifles produced at KZ Buchenwald as 8307. It cannot be determined from the report how this quantity was arrived at. It is unlikely that actual records survived. All information relative to the effects of the raid indicate the facility, was totally destroyed by fires set by the bombing raid. This quantity is however consistent with the observed serial number range of rifles exhibiting the aforementioned traits
 
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another gust. KKW s/n 211002 bug proof
on rt.side& NSKK prize.
ED.
 

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another

just saw this one. not sure if its up there yet.
 

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BSW KKW s/n's to add

BSW KKW

Serial Number SA Gruppe MOD DESIG-BRL or REC S/N on BOLT E/N or BUG PROOF Proof LOC-L or R Soldered Base Added Markings-Location Comments
204732 --Sanded stock, no markings
204759 NSDAP REC No BUG Right
204950 NSDAP REC No BUG Right
205360 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, SA-Stock-L, Unit mark?-'III/2'-Stock-L, SA mark-Stock-R 'R/31/139'-Stock Grip
205838 None REC (bolt #'d-mismatched) BUG Right
205975 None REC No BUG Right
206037 NSDAP REC No BUG Right
206305 NSDAP REC No BUG Right
206400 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, SA-REC, Unit mark 'Jagerstanarie 1 No 186'-REC
207064 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, Shooting prize plate-Stock-R
207236 NSDAP REC No BUG Right
207261 None REC No BUG Right
207558 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, Unit mark?-'23/95 4 6'-Stock-R
208580 NSDAP REC No BUG Right
209498 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, SA 'Kurpfalz 1939 Stadt Zwingenberg ADB'-BRL
209539 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, SA 'Kurpfalz 1939 Landarte Worms'-BRL
209540 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, SA-Stock-R + Unit mark 'P1/17', 'Kurpfalz 1939 Fuhrer D. Gruppe KP'-BRL
209606 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, SA 'Kurpfalz 1939 Kreisleiter Darmstadt'-BRL
209696 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, SA 'Kurpfalz 1939 Werner & Mertz Mainz'-BRL
209750 NSDAP REC No BUG Right, SA 'Kurpfalz 1939'-BRL
211625 None REC No BUG Right, 'R.F.V.'- Buttplate


I'll try to get the Gust KKW's on tomorrow. Just got a new one from the Louisville show and need to make sure my records are squared away first.
 
Gustloff KKW SN's to add

Serial Number SA Gruppe MOD DESIG-BRL or REC S/N on BOLT E/N or BUG PROOF Proof LOC-L or R Soldered Base Added Markings-Location Comments
211703 None REC No BUG Right, "CAR 1950 GHM"-Buttplate
226094 None REC No E/N Left
231770 None REC No E/N Left
235322 None REC No E/N Left
240829 NSDAP REC No E/N Left, SA-Stock-R
241686 None REC No E/N Left, Vertical E/N
242252 None REC No E/N Left
246848 None REC Yes E/N Left
251589 None REC No E/N Left
259089 None REC Yes E/N Left, "11"-Stock-L
269485 None REC Yes E/N Left
269736 None REC E/N Left, Waff749-REC-L, electro penned sn on bolt
269801 NSDAP REC- Eagle N proofs BRL+REC, SA-Stock-L, "S"+"p" on stock grip, "N.3463"-Stock disc-L lower flat band, electro penned sn on bolt
270379 None REC Yes E/N Left, Waff749-Rec-L
 
Running Serial Numbers through Sim, BSW, +Gust

I have a chart of my own going for all of these serial numbers that encompasses a bit more info and also includes the sporter 22mm and 4mm commercial guns as well. The models I've included are(as reads on the receivers): Simson & Co 22mm, Drazifions Karabiner BSW Suhl, BSW Suhl Mod 317K, Gustloff Mod 317K, Gustloff Mod 315, Gustloff PRAZISIONSKARABINER, and Simson & Co-Suhl Prazisions-Karabiner. Surprisingly, they fit in the range nicely to fill gaps. I would appreciate seeing any of these that you possibly have.

I back the theory for blocks of serial numbers set aside for orders. My unfinished task with this chart is guestimating the quantities of these orders.
 
Hello..

looks like you found the right place.. there are a number of us that have been trying to compile this list. I dont own any of those commercial garden guns but, I have some photos saved and can post them.
 
Much appreciated

I would appreciate the photos very much!
The areas/markings that interest me the most are SN, if it has a SN on bolt, Type of proof, if it has stock grooves, and added marking to the brl and rec. There are interesting changes with these in regards to import markings, some have had scopes mounted, logo changes, buttplate BSW logos, etc. Lots going on with these fellers!
 
Purchased in an Amish Country Store!

Just bought this today...
Gustloff KKW
SN 245349
Eagle N - left side of receiver and barrel
SA d. NSDAP - left side of stock butt
 
My KKW

My found as a walk in at a NY state Gun show....

Gustloff #238017 E/N no serial on bolt, HJ Bann 119 stamp on stock, with original sling.
 

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