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View Full Version : BCD 4 discovery...Many pics!



Wolfsburg
04-13-2010, 03:00 AM
Some of you are probably already familiar with this rifle from my post on Gunboards, but I wanted to share it here too. I just just discovered this forum and I guess it is more appropriate than ever for me to buy Mr. Farb's and BruceK's Kriegsmodell book!

Anyway, I went to a local estate auction on Saturday and saw this rifle in a "junk/odds n'ends" pile(along with shotgun barrels, broken blackpowder rifles, etc.) on the last table of things to be auctioned. In the sale catalog it was merely described as "Lot# 198: Mauser, AS-IS, 88200". The few other milsurps there were nothing impressive but I felt a twinge of excitement when my eyes locked onto what appeared to be an honest, intact K98. My heart really started beating when I noticed the key safety and then the checkered buttplate and the drilled and tapped receiver. Better yet, it was matching. I kept telling myself not to get excited since the likelihood was this was a fake, something someone had thrown together. Still I felt good about it so I decided to take the plunge and give it a shot. It was one of the last things to be auctioned and the crowd had thinned considerably. Me and another guy were the only ones interested and I was lucky enough to prevail on my gamble. I paid less than $1k for it so I was happy. It also came with a muzzle cover and some sort of old web sling. I've contacted the auction house in search for the scope and mount. It's a long shot, but worth the effort I think...

As I said, all the numbers I can see are matching (ie: bolt, barrel, safety). It looks like it sat neglected in a closet for 60 years as the stock is very course and dry and the metal finish has some rust on it. Surprisingly, the bore is mint.

The sling appears to be an old piece of webbing but I have no idea if it's some sort of ersatz German sling or something a GI added. It is not nailed to the stock, nor does it have any markings. It is inserted into the sling slot in the stock and tied into a knot to keep it from slipping through. It looks like it has been on the rifle for a long time. I've heard the topic of German web slings is controversial so I'm not sure what to make of it.

To be sure, I have not done a thing to the rifle. The way it appears in the pics is the way I got it. I am hesitant to clean it, but if I do, it will be with careful consideration and with as much advice as I can get from the experts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00531.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00533.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00537.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00550.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00534.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00542.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00543.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00541.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00538.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00539.jpg

EDIT: Stupid Photobucket killed the pics. See attachments:

Wolfsburg
04-13-2010, 03:01 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00536.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00535.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00532.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00545.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00549.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00546.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00548.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/Necrobaron/DSC00547.jpg

Dave Roberts
04-13-2010, 03:30 AM
Really Nice Find , Man nothing like one just out of the Closet .
Best Regards Dave Roberts

mrfarb
04-13-2010, 07:46 AM
First, Welcome to the forum. Second, man, that is a great out of the closet find! Finding an original base shouldn't be too much of a problem if you ask the right guys, but it won't be cheap.

Your sling appears to be a gas mask cannister sling- I've seen these used as rifle slings before, even misidentified in books as late war slings. It's probably the one the vet placed there though.

The rifle itself is a late bcd4 produced in early 45, probably Feb or so. Everything on it looks right too. As for cleaning it, there really isn't much you can do for the surface patina- if you try to use bronze wool on it you will only make the gun unattractive- I'd leave it exactly as it is and just wipe the metal with an oily rag. Quite a treasure- good thing you went for it! I see a lot of scopes and mounts in that serial range too, so who knows, the original mount may show up one day.

Turbo Archie
04-13-2010, 08:07 AM
Sniper or not, you know I love dusty closet guns in this condition..


Look at that wood farb!!!!



..

don w
04-13-2010, 11:08 AM
Thats a real sweetheart Wolfsburg. Welcome.

Hambone
04-13-2010, 11:54 PM
Outstanding find, as I posted Wolfsburg. That gets a pic sticky. Thanks for sharing it.

Col.Klink
04-14-2010, 12:21 AM
Absolutely fantastic! You're a lucky fellow. :thumbsup:

Wolfsburg
04-14-2010, 03:39 AM
Thanks all for the kind words! I suppose I should take some nice outdoors shots of it sometime, especially now that it's stickied! I'd be glad to take more pics, if so desired, though I'm not yet brave enough to take the barrelled action out of the stock.

One thing I have noticed is that the stock almost seems oversized. It feels thick around the wrist, and is very proud around the metal. You can especially see this in the buttplate pic.

I was surprised to see milled parts on a late war rifle, espcially a milled triggerguard with no provisions for locking screws. I always assumed they had transitioned to stamped components totally by '45. I have a lot to learn.

Fascinating information regarding the gas mask canister suspension being used as a sling. I guess it serves the purpose.

As far as cleaning, should some Howard's Feed N Wax for the stock and a coat of oil for the metal be enough or should I even do that? I've used 0000 steel wool before to remove rust with no noticeable finish loss, but I've heard that even this is a big no-no. With such an expensive rifle, I'm not willing to take any chances.

Also, it wouldn't be a cardinal sin to try and put a scope and mount back on it? There's no way I could afford such a set up, but I guess it won't hurt to keep my eyes peeled. I still haven't heard back from the auction house, so I'd be surprised if I have any luck getting in touch with the estate and in turn tracking down the original mount, if it's even around at all. I just keep telling myself that I should be grateful for the luck I've had, even if I don't find the stuff that was removed. I keep second guessing myself about whether the scope and mount were at the auction and I somehow didn't see or recognize them. I'm pretty sure they weren't there, but I still have that seed of doubt in the back of my mind. I don't suppose anyone has ever started a "missing scope mount" directory, have they?

Bigdibbs88
04-14-2010, 07:58 AM
As far as cleaning, should some Howard's Feed N Wax for the stock and a coat of oil for the metal be enough or should I even do that? I've used 0000 steel wool before to remove rust with no noticeable finish loss, but I've heard that even this is a big no-no. With such an expensive rifle, I'm not willing to take any chances.

Also, it wouldn't be a cardinal sin to try and put a scope and mount back on it? There's no way I could afford such a set up, but I guess it won't hurt to keep my eyes peeled. I still haven't heard back from the auction house, so I'd be surprised if I have any luck getting in touch with the estate and in turn tracking down the original mount, if it's even around at all. I just keep telling myself that I should be grateful for the luck I've had, even if I don't find the stuff that was removed. I keep second guessing myself about whether the scope and mount were at the auction and I somehow didn't see or recognize them. I'm pretty sure they weren't there, but I still have that seed of doubt in the back of my mind. I don't suppose anyone has ever started a "missing scope mount" directory, have they?

To be honest i wouldnt even touch it. From the pictures I dont see any signs of really debilitating rust- not really any for that matter, just a lot of patina and maybe just a little air rust but nothing that will affect the integrity or value of the gun. You may want to take it out of the wood just as a precautionary measure to make sure no rust is forming under there (i doubt it). IMO the stock is also fine. Just a great rifle!

As far as mount and scope... most will tell you just to leave it be, but if it were me personally I'd put the mount back on it and find a scope. A sniper aint a sniper just because of a few holes in the metal! Of course with a rifle of this caliber (no pun intended) it has to be done right, with original parts- which is not easy or cheap. So if you dont have the $$, network, or patience again I would just leave it be- value and collectibility can be hurt if done wrong!

mrfarb
04-14-2010, 07:58 AM
Don't put anything on that stock, even Howards. It's made it 60+ years without it, and won't add anything to the value or appearance. I like Howards mind you, but a rifle like this is a time capsule, so anything you do detracts from the value.

On the rust, removing rust from a blued gun is possible- however, a phosphate gun like this is a totally differnet animal. Even a light scrubbing will remove the "fuzz" if you will from phosphate- rust actually stains it, so in order to get the rust out you have to either scrub it down to the metal or chemically remove it- both are detrimental to the looks of the piece. I know it's tempting to do it, but you will regret it, trust me, I've tested it on loose parts before and there is no cure.

About replacing the mount- me personally, I would do it- the rifle is an original LSR and had a mount on it, you can see this by the pin sticking out and the holes drilled in it. You need to find an original in similar shape- the base will be blue, so it won't have to match the phosphate color to look good. Some may say to just leave it as is, but you can add a mount back to it without touching the rest of it- that seems appropriate to me.

Your thick stock is typical of Gustloff- a great feature actually. :)

You have a treasure- try to keep it like it is if you can. Store it well and enjoy it.

jack944
04-14-2010, 09:34 AM
Don't touch, feed or add anything. I think it is interesting in the current configuration. Maybe it didn't cut the mustard as a sniper and was issued as you have it.

I am not a fan of "adding things". Enjoy as is..

Turbo Archie
04-14-2010, 10:00 AM
Don't put anything on that stock, even Howards. It's made it 60+ years without it, .



Yes, please don't do anything to it ....



..

mrfarb
04-14-2010, 08:45 PM
Don't touch, feed or add anything. I think it is interesting in the current configuration. Maybe it didn't cut the mustard as a sniper and was issued as you have it.

I am not a fan of "adding things". Enjoy as is..

I think in this case it did have a mount- the pin you see sticking out was only done on the guns that had mounts on them, as the holes were drilled when the mount was added. I'd just like to point that out- the ones without the pin holes were never built into LSR's.

Wolfsburg
04-14-2010, 09:56 PM
Okay, I will not do anything to it. I just want to be sure I'm not neglecting it and want to take as good care of it that I can.

So the scope, mount, and base would all be blued? I have been told that the mounts are the only things that are numbered to the gun, so I keep hoping against hope that I can at least find the original mount someday, if not the scope and base.

Do we have any idea how many of these LSRs were even made and when? Besides Kriegsmodell, is there a recommended book about K98 snipers specifically?

Dave Roberts
04-16-2010, 04:05 AM
Okay, I will not do anything to it. I just want to be sure I'm not neglecting it and want to take as good care of it that I can.

So the scope, mount, and base would all be blued? I have been told that the mounts are the only things that are numbered to the gun, so I keep hoping against hope that I can at least find the original mount someday, if not the scope and base.

Do we have any idea how many of these LSRs were even made and when? Besides Kriegsmodell, is there a recommended book about K98 snipers specifically?

Wolfsburg
I have a couple Copies of Sniper Scopes and Mounts written by Robert Spielauer it`s more of a Picture Book but a lot of Great Pics of WWI , WWII German , Russian , British , American , Austrian , Argentine and French . You can let me know if You want a Copie .

Wolfsburg
04-16-2010, 06:16 PM
Thanks, Mr. Roberts! PM sent!

Wolfsburg
04-29-2010, 12:30 AM
Just as an addendum:

I was able to get ahold of the auction house and find out where the gun came from. Apparently, the auction wasn't actually an estate sale and the owner is still alive. The owner turned out to be an older gentleman (late 70s/early 80s) who is known locally as a longtime collector of just about anything-guns, glassware, jewelry, vintage toys-you name it. I was able to get in contact with him and unfortunately he couldn't remember when or where he got the LSR. He could've bought this gun 30 years ago at a pawnshop clear across the country for all I know. So the specific history of this gun will never be known.

He could confirm that it didn't have a scope or mount on it when he bought it, so they were removed before his ownership and are also most likely lost to history. . So ultimately I'm at a dead-end along that avenue of search.

I'm just glad the scope and mount weren't at that auction and I somehow missed them! What a doofus I would've felt like...:facepalm:

Gott Mit Uns
04-29-2010, 12:39 AM
That is one fantastic find, my friend. Some guys have all the luck. :thumbsup:

Wolfsburg
05-01-2010, 09:36 PM
Thanks for the kind words. It was indeed just luck, pure and simple. I just wish I had more of it!

Valleysniper
05-07-2010, 02:28 AM
Fantastic find, thanks for posting pictures. If I were you I would buy a lottery ticket this week as well.

Wolfsburg
05-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Thanks, Valleysniper! The thought did occur to me!:biggrin1: