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BergerBoy
07-19-2012, 10:32 AM
Hi Folks,

New to this side of the forum (I've been active on the 98k side, and am a proud owner of a Bolt M/M CE 43).
Ran across a GEW 1917 that was totally matching including bolt, and was remarked as 1920 right below the 1917 date. I was told this is called a "double-date"?

I believe it had a large "Loewe" logo on the receiver near the date stamps.
It looked in overall nice condition, although I didn't give it a full inspection, including a bore-light look.
The asking price at this shop was only $275, which seemed quite low to me, especially given the 100% matching serial numbers.
Not knowing much about this line of Mausers, was wondering if this was worth a second look?
Sorry for not getting photos.

Also interesting was how much the mechanisms were the same as my 1943 Sauer's. Clearly the Mausers realized that had gotten it right in the GEW line, and carried much forward to the 98k's.

Also interesting is how much this GEW felt like my Mosin when I held it.
The longer barrel, the weight, and the notched hand guard really carried like my 1938 Mosin.

Any thoughts?
Are the earlier GEW's as valuable as the 98k's? I would expect a similar condition 98k with all matching S/N's would go for much more (maybe $800 to $1000+?). I paid $500 for my CE43 bolt m/m.
I like the thought of owning something even older by 25 years than my 98k, and it seems like a really small investment to obtain it - especially if it ends up looking like a decent shooter.

Thanks!

RyanE
07-19-2012, 12:17 PM
What did this logo look like? There are no Loewe Gew98s. The "1920" would indicate that it was legally in the possession of Germany after WWI, but it is usually stamped on the top of the receiver ring not under the date. Was is "1917/20"?

As for price, almost any Mauser in decent shape would be worth $200.

BergerBoy
07-19-2012, 02:40 PM
Thanks Ryan,

I'll need to swing back by the shop soon to get a better look at this rifle, and to take some pix. I wasn't really looking for another Mauser, but the $275 price tag caught my eye, and the fact that it looked like all the s/n's matched really got me interested.
So I started reading up on GEW's last night to see if I could remember the armorer's name - Loewe seemed to be it, but I guess I'm wrong.
I was sure about the 1917/1920 dates, however.
What else to look for?
And how could I possibly go wrong for that price? especially if all the numbers match?

Loewe
07-19-2012, 03:15 PM
As Ryan stated, Ludwig Loewe AG didn't make the Modell98 rifle, if it was a short name, like Loewe, it was probably one of the arsenals, Danzig, Spandau or Amberg are most common. Erfurt made a very few Gewehr98's in 1917, only a couple are known, very rare.

Also as Ryan stated the property stamp (1920) should be across the top of the receiver, above the mfg name. It simply means it was government property during the disarming act. It had nothing to do with Versailles or the Entente or "authorized rifle" or the other things the internet is full of these days. It was simply a tool to differentiate government property from contraband (illegally held military rifles). If the "1920" is lower or /20 it would be an interesting rifle. Such rifles may exist, the S28's have a lower "1920" and there are reports of rifles with "1920" manufacture dates, though I have never encountered one.

As to value, every thing depends on how original and matching it is, especially the stock. Look it over closely, it should be serialed externally, like early K98k, it probably will have a depot marking at the wrist or on the buttstock, it could even have an unit marking or interwar organizational marking on the buttstock or takedown. These would enhance value.

Generally the interwar Gewehr98 modified rifles (upgraded or Gew.98M) have less value than an equal condition K98k, this is because there is less demand for them; they are far scarcer and even borderline rare in some cases. They are much more difficult to find original-matching than a K98k, but cheaper, this may very well change when Bruce & Mike's book comes out soon. They have amassed more information in their one books than exists in all others sources combined.

If you want a interwar modified-upgraded Gewehr98 rifle, this is the time to buy them, as when the book comes out demand will probably quickly outpace the meager supply that exists. (actually their is no supply, they so rarely come up for auction "original-matching" they are easily more a condition rarity than most Imperial rifles and almost all K98k varieties..)

BergerBoy
07-19-2012, 09:19 PM
Thanks S.S. and Ryan - good to get your advice once again (you were helpful to me over on the 98k board).

Would I be able to shoot my 8mm Mauser rounds through this GEW98?
I'll probably take another look at the 1917/1920 rifle over the weekend and take some photos to post (I may even go ahead and buy it if it looks halfway as nice as I remember - for $275, I don't think I can go too wrong, unless its completely been doctored).
Are the mechs close enough to that of the 98k, that I should focus on those operations when I inspect it again?
What type of things should I look for that are specific to these older models?

Looking forward to expanding my collection and this would be a nice add, at a minimal investment.
I was there looking at the M1's, but those are 2-3 times as much, and I'd need more approval from the "head office" for that kind of outlay!
I read on another thread, something about a bolt that had been scrubbed. Chance that this one had been renumbered? And if so, how to tell if that was an "official" renumbering during the 1917==>1920 upgrade it went through? Instead of some Bubba trying to turn this into an all-matching wanna-be?


Thanks

RyanE
07-19-2012, 10:35 PM
Thanks S.S. and Ryan - good to get your advice once again (you were helpful to me over on the 98k board).

Would I be able to shoot my 8mm Mauser rounds through this GEW98?
I'll probably take another look at the 1917/1920 rifle over the weekend and take some photos to post (I may even go ahead and buy it if it looks halfway as nice as I remember - for $275, I don't think I can go too wrong, unless its completely been doctored).
Are the mechs close enough to that of the 98k, that I should focus on those operations when I inspect it again?
What type of things should I look for that are specific to these older models?

Looking forward to expanding my collection and this would be a nice add, at a minimal investment.
I was there looking at the M1's, but those are 2-3 times as much, and I'd need more approval from the "head office" for that kind of outlay!
I read on another thread, something about a bolt that had been scrubbed. Chance that this one had been renumbered? And if so, how to tell if that was an "official" renumbering during the 1917==>1920 upgrade it went through? Instead of some Bubba trying to turn this into an all-matching wanna-be?


Thanks

You're welcome.

Yes, assuming the barrel has not been replaced or re-chambered post-war, it will be chambered in standard 8mm Mauser. Mechanically it is virtually identical to a K98k. Take notice of the rear sight. If it is "flat" it has been upgraded. Also see if there are any stamps in the wood on the side or the bottom.

As for renumbering of parts, recognizing the difference between legitimate renumbering and fakery is largely a matter of experience. Your best bet is to take the best pics possible of all the major parts (bands, stock, bolt, etc.) The '1920' is only a property stamp, it does not mean that it was necessarily reworked in any way.

Loewe
07-20-2012, 01:21 AM
Yes, S patrone and sS patrone will work equally well in any Modell98 rifle, the rear sight is the issue generally. You do not need S patrone to shoot an Imperial Gewehr98, it will shoot sS patrone just fine. The sS patrone was introduced in 1918 for MG use, it was authorized in 1918 for use in the Gewehr98 in emergency situations. The issue was not safety or even accuracy, rather limited supply and production of the sS patrone.

The mechanics of the interwar Gewehr98 is the same as the K98k, there is no significant difference besides length and bolt handle manipulation. The rear sight should be sS patrone compliant, even if it isn't it will be perfectly safe to use and accuracy at ranges most have access to will work the same. If your rifle has the original Lange rear sight there are some issues for short range shooting, they are set at 400m and naturally short range shooting has to be compensated for.

The things to look for is similar to the K98k, how the rifle is serialed is important, but as Ryan states it takes time to get a feel for what is right and there are too many small things to list in a thread. Stocks should have a take down, they are sometimes sanded during rework, but this only means you need to look for markings that will be original to the rework or upgrade process. Depot markings should be clearer than the Imperial markings... generally what is bad for the K98k is bad or worse for the interwar Gewehr98, they loose value quickly with problems.

The more matching the better. Any sanding, harsh cleaning, fraudulent markings you should look at it as value of parts when purchasing.

Good luck and do some pictures!



Would I be able to shoot my 8mm Mauser rounds through this GEW98? ... Are the mechs close enough to that of the 98k, that I should focus on those operations when I inspect it again?
What type of things should I look for that are specific to these older models?

Thanks

BergerBoy
07-20-2012, 07:36 PM
OK - On the second time around, I couldn't bring myself to leave the shop without this rifle!!
I went back today to give it another look over, based on all your great input, and it simply jumped into my car! (After I paid for it of course).
I'm posting some pictures below, but clearly its not a "Loewe" like I thought, but an Amberg 1917/1920.
Serial number 3198 "d" is matching throughout! Every part that is numbered, has the full 3198, or just 98.
No import marks that I can tell (lots of "key" and "crown" type symbols that I assume are similar to the WaA of the 98k's?)

The bore looks quite good, bright and shiny with nice rifle grooves (do I dare fire this antique???).

Also a very clear and interesting stamping/carving/burning on the buttstock wood of "EWB". Not sure if this is a depot stamping, or a soldier's personalization of his initials (which would be pretty cool IMO).

The only drawback I see, is that its a duffle-cut. Taped over with black electrical tape by some prior owner (not the shop keeper). But in my mind, doesn't this add to the authenticity of it being a true WWII GI bring-back, of a re-arsenal'd WWI original rifle???

The leather strap looks quite old, without markings that I can see, and is separated/severred close to the the buttstock hasp. Any chance of repairing the leather? If not, what can be done to bring back some life to the leather strap? (even though I'll end up removing it and putting it into storage).

The cleaning rod is even numbered "98" as well, but is silver in color, not blued at all. The threads look real, from what I've learned to look for. (original as well??)
Also - there is an interesting muzzle and front sight cover that has a functioning spring-hinged cap. I was able to remove it by pushing and turning the whole assembly, as it was retained by the sight base. Is this a good catch as well? This is the only piece of the rifle that is showing any rust.

The only things missing are the upper buttplate screw and the one rear trigger guard "screw-keeper" screw.

Really looking for someone to poke some holes in this, and tell me that what I've got is not as great as it seems (not really, but would like your inputs regardless).

When I tell you I paid only $275 for this piece, I'm not kidding, and that's what made it impossible to turn away from - even though I wasn't in the market for another German rifle (was really starting to shop for my first M1 Garand for an eventual shopping trip down to the CMP store in Ohio).

Thoughts? Criticisms? Balloon-bursting jabs??

Thanks!

WaPrüf2
07-20-2012, 07:50 PM
EWB = Einwohnerwehr Bayern = Bavarian Citizens Militia; operated 1919-1921. Same marking found on K98As, G88s, M91 Mosins and Revolvers M79 and M83, P08s, LP08s, C96s, M14 Mausers, and Bavarian contract Steyr M12s. One Steyr M07 has been reported with the brand. Reportedly also on bayonets but nobody seems to be able to produce one to prove it.

rockisle1903
07-20-2012, 07:52 PM
To say that you stole that rifle is an understatement....Great find!!!

Loewe
07-20-2012, 08:16 PM
You stole, and I mean stole that rifle... the lid is worth better part of $100 probably. Do images of any acceptance or markings, look it over closely as mfg markings are often hidden away or faint logos.

What I find so neat is the 1920 property marking on a EWB, going from recollection that isn't too common... I will have to check on whether others are known, but offhand I do not recall another. Is there a "1920" on the buttstock? Probably not?

I am thinking, if this is a matching stock, that it is a salvaged stock used on this rifle in a subsequent rework, and it is only coincidence that it is a EWB stock on an Amberg/property marked b/r. Considering the RS stock markings this would make the most sense, the E/H over Imperial cypher etc..

Shooting is a personal decision; however it is not in anyway dangerous if the rifle passes the typical things that would apply to the 98k equally. They are the same essentially and of the same quality workmanship-materials. People shoot them all the time, though you should take the same precautions that you would with a 98k.

Do more pictures, right side of receiver, left buttstock, any and all markings you can find, the wrist of the stock, buttplate, - any marking that looks interesting.

Loewe
07-20-2012, 08:28 PM
BTW, do a close up of the acceptance under the E/H on the stock, the one that is overstruck over the sanded Imperial cypher and acceptance?

BergerBoy
07-20-2012, 11:27 PM
Thanks SS.
The buttstock does have a small 1920.stamped.
I'll post more pix in the morning.
What do you mean by "lid"? The muzzle cap?

Loewe
07-21-2012, 01:53 AM
Yes, the muzzle cover.

Thanks


Thanks SS.
The buttstock does have a small 1920.stamped.
I'll post more pix in the morning.
What do you mean by "lid"? The muzzle cap?

BergerBoy
07-21-2012, 07:56 AM
OK.
I'll need some more guidance into the terminology.
What's the "E/H" on the stock? I'll look for this and then take photos of the acceptance stamp under this, as you requested.
Also looking for some advice on the duffle-cut. What to do here? Can it / should it be repaired? Is there a way to glue it back together to make it more functional?
Also wondering about the cut's location. I remember seeing all the 98k cuts done under the rear band, not in the middle of the fore stock like this one.

Going golfing.
Will take some time this aft to go through my find with more attention.
Thanks,

Loewe
07-21-2012, 03:31 PM
E/H is Eagle/H (Heer), your picture P1010134

Do a close & clear picture of the acceptance under this large eagle? Also the wrist of the stock area (the narrow part of the stock where your right hand grasps the stock with your finger along the trigger guard - assuming you are right handed) This area is where depot accept rifles, whether interwar or nazi era, this is the typical location, though both can vary in location, this is most typical.

The DC (duffle cut) this is not the best location, most like it at the rear band as there is more meat (wood) to work with and you can hide it better. This location was chosen, I assume, to keep as much length of the stock as possible, often you see them cut closer to the rear sight, which I would think would make it easier to get a good repair but in such a narrow stretch of the stock it might be more difficult. Looks like this one will be more difficult with the cleaning rod situation.

You might ask one of the carpentry inclined collectors for advice here, Craig (Hambone), MauserBill, BiO, or others have a lot of experience with these and can help you better than I can on DC repair.

Try and do images of the rear sight markings too? Buttplate if there are any too?

BergerBoy
07-21-2012, 06:03 PM
Hi Again,

Here are some more detailed/closer pictures, taken with outside light, so I hope they are clearer.
The Eagle/Heer is quite vivid (#139) - Looks like an Eagle's wings with a crown on top, and an "H" at the bottom.
The "acceptance" stamp that is right below it is photo #140. Not sure what to make of that shape or symbol. Does it look familiar to you.
(Do you have a library/catalog of these stamps for the GEW's, like there exists for the 98k's Waffenamts?)

The wrist markings are on photos #141 and #142. Right behind the trigger guard underside of stock. A 4-digit letters/numbers, maybe "SUIS" or "8U1B"?
Two more Eagle stamps rearward of the larger one.

Behind the rear sling loop is another S/N that matches the rifle on #143.
Thats all the stock markings that I can see without disassembling the metal from the wood.

One minor hiccup that I can see now: The front band/bayo lug has a "98" stamped on the front left facing, but also an X'd-out "4?' below it - photo #155. Maybe a depot replacement??? And an interesting marking on the opposite front right facing on photo #156. What does this look like to you?

I'll start a new reply with some more of the metal markings.

mrfarb
07-21-2012, 06:07 PM
That is a cool rifle, with Spandau rework inspections on the stock. A keeper if you ask me! :thumbsup:

BergerBoy
07-21-2012, 06:31 PM
That is a cool rifle, with Spandau rework inspections on the stock. A keeper if you ask me! :thumbsup:


Thanks Mike,

I replied to your PM just a bit ago.
What's the details on the "Spandau rework" markings?
Would love to see a catalog of symbols to get more fluent in the markings.
What should I look for after dis-assembling the rifle? Markings inside the stock of my 98k were pretty telling, in that they matched the S/N, and even had date stamps that were in synch with the S/N.

Also would like to know how to approach repairing the duffle-cut on the stock, since its further forward on the fore-stock, and is loose around the barrel now.

RyanE
07-21-2012, 07:05 PM
Thanks Mike,

I replied to your PM just a bit ago.
What's the details on the "Spandau rework" markings?
Would love to see a catalog of symbols to get more fluent in the markings.
What should I look for after dis-assembling the rifle? Markings inside the stock of my 98k were pretty telling, in that they matched the S/N, and even had date stamps that were in synch with the S/N.

Also would like to know how to approach repairing the duffle-cut on the stock, since its further forward on the fore-stock, and is loose around the barrel now.

That is an amazing score! Early Spandau rework and an Einwohner! The eagles with 'Su' on the side and wrist are acceptance stamps from the ordance depot at Spandau where the rifle was repaired or inspected. Do you have any shots of the bolt? I assume it matches as well?

Here is a link on repairing the cut: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?3289-Duffle-cut-repair-(pics. Its your rifle and your call, but I would personally clean off the tape gunk and leave it alone.

BergerBoy
07-21-2012, 11:44 PM
Here's some more detailed pix of the metals.
The right side receiver markings are interesting - 3-across crown symbols that are all slightly different, with a 1 and 4 in between, and another 1(?) off to the right(#144).
The barrel is marked 7.92 at the joint to the receiver top (#145).

The rear sight has the same 98 S/N marked in 3 places, and an "S" on the barrel top just behind it.

The rear band is numbered correctly on the left side, but on the right side it has symbols that seem to show a "1938" date. (#150, 151, 152) Any explanation for this?

The front band / bayonet lug is also numbered, but appears to be re-numbered. The proper "98" from the s/n is there, but also an X'd-out "4?". Was this renumbered during the 1920 upgrade? (see photos #155 & 156)

More postings tomorrow if I get a chance to take apart the stock from the receiver to find more markings/proofs, etc.

BergerBoy
07-22-2012, 12:16 AM
That is an amazing score! Early Spandau rework and an Einwohner! The eagles with 'Su' on the side and wrist are acceptance stamps from the ordance depot at Spandau where the rifle was repaired or inspected. Do you have any shots of the bolt? I assume it matches as well?

Here is a link on repairing the cut: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?3289-Duffle-cut-repair-(pics. Its your rifle and your call, but I would personally clean off the tape gunk and leave it alone.

Thanks again Ryan,
What symbol specifies Spandau rework? is that an "SU 18" on the wrist eagle?
Was the rework at Spandau in line with the 1920 re-dating? and could they have renumbered the front band, with the X'd out "4?" replaced with the matching "98"?
Where can I learn of the history that makes the combo of the "Early Spandau rework and an Einwohner: such a score?


Here are some photos of the bolt (all matching to the rifle).
What's that cool symbol on the underside of the bolt handle? (photo 121) Looks like a variation on the crown symbol again, with maybe a lion standing on top?

mrfarb
07-22-2012, 08:31 AM
The Amberg firing proof is the standing lion. The cool thing about these modified Gew98 rifles is the varied history of each one. I've yet to run across two examples that are exactly alike, with most serving in WW1, Weimar era, and WW2. The different paths each rifle takes makes them neat.

There isn't anything extremely special about each step, but you are getting the reason they are fun to collect- researching each aspect of the rifle by the markings. FYI, the Spandau rework appears to have happened in 1938 based on the rear band markings. However, it may have gone through a rework multiple times, and yes the front bayonet mount X'd out serial number was most likely done during one of the reworks.

BergerBoy
07-22-2012, 02:46 PM
Hi Folks,
Nice afternoon for a detailed dis-assembly of the GEW98 picked-up this weekend.
The stock inner pix markings are attached here.
Looks like all the s/n markings are still matching.

Underside of stock under the trigger assembly shows a "W" or "M" just forward of trigger opening, and a "10" rear of the recoil lug hole.

Topside under receiver shows a funny symbol in the wood behind the lug (maybe a lower-case g?), and another symbol "C"? on the lug metal itself (photo #170)

Serial # 3198 under the barrel, and 2 "X"s forward on the stock under the barrel (#173).

The upper hand guard wood also has the s/n stamped, as well as another symbol ahead of the s/n (#167).

I'll outline the barrel and receiver markings uncovered in another post.

BergerBoy
07-22-2012, 04:18 PM
Markings on barrel adjacent to the rear sight seem to indicate the sight retrofit activity that I read about this weekend: "S42 / K" = done in 1942 (photo #174).
#176 looks like 3-across proof stamps. Was this for the sight retrofit?

Lots of other interesting markings all around the receiver and barrel - Would be really cool to understand what each little marking's purpose was. Real "CSI" forensic project to figure that out, I guess!

Any advice on cleaning up some of the surface corrosion and gunk on the metals? I don't want to affect the finish at all, but there's a bit of accumulated gunk in the nooks and crannies that I'd like to clean up before re-assembling.

Loewe
07-22-2012, 06:18 PM
I have always been of the opinion HZa Spandau made certain components, wide rear bands, bolt bodies, handguards and even rifle barrels. These are marked with the inspector (Su4 is common on bands) and the SuWw/date represent when-where it was made. Mark Wieringa wrote a brief article for the Automag some years ago with his observations on the different inspectors and workshops. I think he is generally correct, though he doesn't go into great detail as that wasn't the purpose of his article.

Anyway, your band date, as with the MO r/s (rear sight sleeve) date only represents when that part was made for the ordnance system, it could have been applied at anytime then or afterward by a depot. Generally I do not think depots marked small components, like bands to identify work done, rather to identify the part maker. You do see some depot markings when adjustments have to be made, in weird places, but they are usually easy to noodle out and differentiate from the component maker marks which identify the part maker in the ordnance system.

The wrist marking is what identifies the depot in this case.

Regarding the "1920" property mark, I do not have the time to see if others are known, my database isn't set up to make such a search easy and I have not made a trends sheet for this (EWB rifle variations). I know it is not common to find these two marking together, the EW only existed a short time, I think up to 1921 or so, the Bavarians the last to disband. The property marking was only used for a short span during the same time, - they are totally unrelated in purpose. Worse, the EW was militia, with government ties, but not exactly controlled by the central government or the Army. This is plain enough by all the difficulties they had in getting the suspicious and uncompromising Bavarians to disband the organization.

Some small arms had the "1920" mark applied later, at least in regard to the P08, or so say some P08 books and their forums. I do not know what to think in this case, until I have time to see if I can examine others I may have recorded but no recollection for.

Generally, the EWB rifles are one of the most common Gewehr98's to be found with both an interwar past and can be found in "Imperial" configuration, many were clearly hidden, not returned to the Reichsheer, many have Lange r/s, bright receivers and no interwar indications, other than the EWB brand. Many are like new condition... Amberg, along with MO was the last of the large makers of the Gewehr98, they were the only high production makers in 1918 and the only 1918 dated Gewehr98's easy to find in the US, though most are interwar reworked. Most were clearly never issued during the war.

Anyway, a very interesting rifle, with several things that are unusual about it. Almost like it is too convenient and some of the things do not line up well about it, but as I do not think anyone is capable of this high quality work these days, not on rifles anyway, I am sure it is a good rifle. Besides, like Mike says, it is not like two of these have ever been found alike, - literally, anything is possible with them, which makes them prime targets for humpery once they increase in value, like when Mike & Bruce's book comes out.

Turbo Archie
07-23-2012, 10:00 AM
I have seen an Su dated hand guard..


..

BergerBoy
07-24-2012, 05:01 PM
I'm looking to add a bayonet to this rifle.
What would be the most correct that would have been issued to go with this rifle in its original WW1 incarnation?
There's a Simson-Suhl 1915 bayo on eBay right now.
But I see different versions up for auction as well: Saw backs, Butcher Blades, Ring pommels, half-hook pommels.
And numerous different lengths.
What's the correct bayo for this rifle?
Or is there not a "correct" one?

Loewe
07-24-2012, 05:21 PM
A blued Sg98/05 or Sg84/98 II would probably be best, but an Imperial era Sg98/05 would be ok. Or you could just use a type III, the rifle is an interwar rifle but served in the nazi era, so a typical type III would do well also.


I'm looking to add a bayonet to this rifle.
What would be the most correct that would have been issued to go with this rifle in its original WW1 incarnation?
There's a Simson-Suhl 1915 bayo on eBay right now.
But I see different versions up for auction as well: Saw backs, Butcher Blades, Ring pommels, half-hook pommels.
And numerous different lengths.
What's the correct bayo for this rifle?
Or is there not a "correct" one?

BergerBoy
07-24-2012, 06:43 PM
Thanks.
Not familiar with those type nmbrs yet
What would the butcher blade 19 inch fall under?
[QUOhyTE=SimsonSuhl;38516]A blued Sg9type8/05 or Sg84/9o8 II would probably be best, but an Imperial era Sg98/05 would be ok. Or you could just use a type III, the rifle is an interwar rifle but served in the nazi era, so a typical type III would do well also.[/QUOTE]

Loewe
07-24-2012, 07:13 PM
The Butcher knife looking bayonet is the Sg98/05, the Sg84/98 II is like the nazi era bayonet but originally bright metal blade, the type III is the nazi era bayonet (1934-1945) and i think the WuK from 1926-1930 were also type III's but they are hard to find nice & reasonably priced...

Your rifle is an interwar rifle, not Imperial, so best bayonet for the rifle is either a interwar or nazi era bayonet. They would all be blued bayonets, many were originally Imperial and with bright metal blades, but like the rifles, the bayonets were reworked and blued during the process.

BergerBoy
07-24-2012, 07:45 PM
Thanks (once again) for the guidance.
This one is not blued, and also looks to be sharpened (which I know is a negative), but it seems to be reasonably priced.
Its a butcher blade by Simson Suhl and has a W 15 stamping on the spline, which I take to mean 1915.

Loewe
07-24-2012, 08:18 PM
Imperial bayonets were usually sharpened, not all, as I have owned a few that weren't sharpened, but most were and period done too. I suppose they used the bayonet more in the Imperial era, certainly the doctrine called for it pre-war.

By the war, most armies took a more practical view to the bayonet, the British were still enamored by the "cold steel" tradition, - and they burdened the AEF with a lot of the silliness when they trained our soldiers for combat, but the French and especially the Germans had more of a tendency to be open to the realities of the new warfare by 1917.

Recently I read a interwar German article, translated by the Infantry Journal in the 1930's, about German views during the war towards the bayonet (the peice was on infantry weapons in general, not just the bayonet), stating that while it was always up to the discretion of the commanding officer to judge the situation, generally mounting bayonets to rifles were to be avoid (why some British trench reports noted the lack of bayonets on German rifles when attacked, this was due to the German tendency to not mount bayonets unless ordered to do so) because they made the rifles cumbersome and effected accuracy. The idea was to inflict casualties before bayonets were useful, and if the need for hand to hand arose to use grenades and close combat weapons, pistols, knives and spades etc.. Generally bayonet practice was not done during the war.

In the interwar period the US Army had a lot of discussions about the practicality of the bayonet, many thought it was a mistake to continue with the bayonet at all, some even "gently" criticized the British methods and that the French did a better job training our soldiers (both the Brits and French trained AEF units, generally the French were highly regarded and had a better grasp on German doctrine in the later war period), some were rather excuse prone, suggesting that the bayonet deaths were just not counted correctly as they were left on the field! I thought it funny but hey I am not sure how casualties were calculated exactly..

Anyway, here is a good picture of a German bayonet with some clear sharpening! Collectors today would think it done by a 10 year old in a garage!


Thanks (once again) for the guidance.
This one is not blued, and also looks to be sharpened (which I know is a negative), but it seems to be reasonably priced.
Its a butcher blade by Simson Suhl and has a W 15 stamping on the spline, which I take to mean 1915.

BergerBoy
07-25-2012, 04:10 PM
You stole, and I mean stole that rifle... the lid is worth better part of $100 probably. Do images of any acceptance or markings, look it over closely as mfg markings are often hidden away or faint logos.

What I find so neat is the 1920 property marking on a EWB, going from recollection that isn't too common... I will have to check on whether others are known, but offhand I do not recall another. Is there a "1920" on the buttstock? Probably not?

I am thinking, if this is a matching stock, that it is a salvaged stock used on this rifle in a subsequent rework, and it is only coincidence that it is a EWB stock on an Amberg/property marked b/r. Considering the RS stock markings this would make the most sense, the E/H over Imperial cypher etc..Shooting is a personal decision; however it is not in anyway dangerous if the rifle passes the typical things that would apply to the 98k equally. They are the same essentially and of the same quality workmanship-materials. People shoot them all the time, though you should take the same precautions that you would with a 98k.

Do more pictures, right side of receiver, left buttstock, any and all markings you can find, the wrist of the stock, buttplate, - any marking that looks interesting.

Back to Simson Suhl: Based on your prior thinking, are you still of the mindset that this is a salvaged stock, retrofitted onto this rifle during one of the upgrades btwn wars? If that was the case, would the stock have all the matching serial numbers to the original rifle receiver, etc? Including in the wood under the barrel?
I'd like to think the stock was original, and saw the whole rifle go through EWB "service" after WW1.
There is a "1920" on the buttstock, but that could have easily been added during the 1920 Government acquiring the weapon. But the hidden s/n on the stock (and the hand guard) seem improbable that the stock was swapped onto this rifle later.
Your thoughts?

Loewe
07-25-2012, 05:22 PM
I can't tell the stock maker, the cypher and the wrist acceptance are overstruck and this is the only way to tell the original maker of the stock. Amberg rifles are easy to identify, the cypher alone gives it away, but the wrist acceptance easily identifies them too. In this case it is overstuck and I can't be certain. What I can see of the wrist and take down suggest it is an Amberg-Bavarian stock, but I can't be certain.

As for the property marking and the EWB marking being original to the rifle of that period, it seems unlikely to me that both were on the rifle in the August-December 1920 period. The EW was ordered disbanded before then but as a practical matter the Bavarians were not cooperative in this matter and it took sometime to get them to comply, it wasn't until May-June 1921 that the Bavarians agreed to dissolve the EWB, and they were none too happy about it then. Generally the EW existed throughout Germany, most of it was dissolved before Spa, but the Bavarians had more independence from the central government and ignored the orders to disband the militia.

As it began in 1919, long before the Spa conference, and lasted through at least the middle of 1921, and that I do not think I have seen many, if any at all, that have both markings, I suspect the "1920" is a later addition. This is not typical, general production, Simson made firearms, were not marked nor were most depot builds. But the P08 crowd have identified pistols with the added "1920" to weapons that were new made well into the late 1920's.

I can't imagine this rifle being anything but what it suggests it is, no one is this good, and these rifles aren't worth "creating" so I am sure it is good. When I have the time, I will try and trend EWB firearms and see if others exist, they might, I just do not organize rifles by such criteria and sometimes do not even mark the file as a EWB rifle.

BergerBoy
07-25-2012, 05:50 PM
Thanks again Paul,

So it sounds like from your input and also from Wolfgang (Amberg), that the EWB stock was retrofit onto this rifle after the 1920 reclaim stamping, correct?
Is that necessarily a negative towards this rifle historically?
It seems to make its history a little more staggered, or piece-meal.
But I'm not sure what you're meaning, when you say "no one is this good"?
What would they be trying to re-create? And why?
Sorry for the inane questions - just trying to learn :hail:

Loewe
07-25-2012, 06:47 PM
I do not recall what Wolfgang said, however, the "1920" isn't a reclaim marking, nor is it anything related to rework or Versailles or "authorized" or the dozens of other suggestions found on the internet. It simply means the rifle was in government hands during August 1920 when they began to mark rifles in their possession.

It means nothing more, and the purpose was only to differentiate between rifles the government held and those that were illegally held by civilians and paramilitary groups. Especially leftist elements that were causing most of the problems, - ironically fighting a rather leftist German government. Apparently no one despises leftist governments more than the far left... it would cause even more problems later.

Anyway, I doubt it would help or harm value, having both markings, most haven't clue to their meanings or if they do, they are at best confused to purpose and the history behind the markings. EWB is well known, it has a following, many like the interwar police, railway, militia and paramilitary groups, the various markings that can be found on interwar rifles, but generally I do not think it helps value very much as both the "1920" and the EWB markings are common to interwar rifles. The combination is what is rare imo, but who would even notice enough to care? Most collectors seem driven by mfg-dates, or unit markings, especially if they are police related..

I meant few are good enough to create this combination of markings in the right places, and that those that might have the ability and knowledge wouldn't find the effort worthwhile. Such things happen regularly with the P08 crowd, the advanced state of humpery in their field is sometimes impossible to differentiate, but interwar rifles? Not likely... there isn't enough profit to make it worthwhile.

BergerBoy
07-28-2012, 09:45 PM
Just to put a nice exclamation mark on this thread:
I was able to take this rifle out the range today, and she fired like a champ!
Even loading and ejecting like butter!
After the first 10 shots, it was evident that she was shooting about 6 inches low, as compared with my 98k.
A little compensation, and I was able to put 14 out of 15 on the pie plate at 100 yards!
(bonus was getting a lot of curious on-lookers at the range - the big 8mm shells really boomed over all the AR's and their "crack/cracks")

Its so amazing to me, and probably what I find so satisfying about this hobby, that after a good cleaning and lubrication, even 95 years later, this piece of machinery is still able to operate the way it was designed and manufactured.
Especially given the colorful history this weapon has, and who-knows-what kind of abusive action its seen.

So, now knowing what the old girl can do, I'll put her away for safe-keeping, happy that's she's more than just a pretty face, with a checkered past!