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Questions about a Double Date GEW 1917/1920

BergerBoy

Well-known member
Hi Folks,

New to this side of the forum (I've been active on the 98k side, and am a proud owner of a Bolt M/M CE 43).
Ran across a GEW 1917 that was totally matching including bolt, and was remarked as 1920 right below the 1917 date. I was told this is called a "double-date"?

I believe it had a large "Loewe" logo on the receiver near the date stamps.
It looked in overall nice condition, although I didn't give it a full inspection, including a bore-light look.
The asking price at this shop was only $275, which seemed quite low to me, especially given the 100% matching serial numbers.
Not knowing much about this line of Mausers, was wondering if this was worth a second look?
Sorry for not getting photos.

Also interesting was how much the mechanisms were the same as my 1943 Sauer's. Clearly the Mausers realized that had gotten it right in the GEW line, and carried much forward to the 98k's.

Also interesting is how much this GEW felt like my Mosin when I held it.
The longer barrel, the weight, and the notched hand guard really carried like my 1938 Mosin.

Any thoughts?
Are the earlier GEW's as valuable as the 98k's? I would expect a similar condition 98k with all matching S/N's would go for much more (maybe $800 to $1000+?). I paid $500 for my CE43 bolt m/m.
I like the thought of owning something even older by 25 years than my 98k, and it seems like a really small investment to obtain it - especially if it ends up looking like a decent shooter.

Thanks!
 
What did this logo look like? There are no Loewe Gew98s. The "1920" would indicate that it was legally in the possession of Germany after WWI, but it is usually stamped on the top of the receiver ring not under the date. Was is "1917/20"?

As for price, almost any Mauser in decent shape would be worth $200.
 
Thanks Ryan,

I'll need to swing back by the shop soon to get a better look at this rifle, and to take some pix. I wasn't really looking for another Mauser, but the $275 price tag caught my eye, and the fact that it looked like all the s/n's matched really got me interested.
So I started reading up on GEW's last night to see if I could remember the armorer's name - Loewe seemed to be it, but I guess I'm wrong.
I was sure about the 1917/1920 dates, however.
What else to look for?
And how could I possibly go wrong for that price? especially if all the numbers match?
 
As Ryan stated, Ludwig Loewe AG didn't make the Modell98 rifle, if it was a short name, like Loewe, it was probably one of the arsenals, Danzig, Spandau or Amberg are most common. Erfurt made a very few Gewehr98's in 1917, only a couple are known, very rare.

Also as Ryan stated the property stamp (1920) should be across the top of the receiver, above the mfg name. It simply means it was government property during the disarming act. It had nothing to do with Versailles or the Entente or "authorized rifle" or the other things the internet is full of these days. It was simply a tool to differentiate government property from contraband (illegally held military rifles). If the "1920" is lower or /20 it would be an interesting rifle. Such rifles may exist, the S28's have a lower "1920" and there are reports of rifles with "1920" manufacture dates, though I have never encountered one.

As to value, every thing depends on how original and matching it is, especially the stock. Look it over closely, it should be serialed externally, like early K98k, it probably will have a depot marking at the wrist or on the buttstock, it could even have an unit marking or interwar organizational marking on the buttstock or takedown. These would enhance value.

Generally the interwar Gewehr98 modified rifles (upgraded or Gew.98M) have less value than an equal condition K98k, this is because there is less demand for them; they are far scarcer and even borderline rare in some cases. They are much more difficult to find original-matching than a K98k, but cheaper, this may very well change when Bruce & Mike's book comes out soon. They have amassed more information in their one books than exists in all others sources combined.

If you want a interwar modified-upgraded Gewehr98 rifle, this is the time to buy them, as when the book comes out demand will probably quickly outpace the meager supply that exists. (actually their is no supply, they so rarely come up for auction "original-matching" they are easily more a condition rarity than most Imperial rifles and almost all K98k varieties..)
 
Thanks S.S. and Ryan - good to get your advice once again (you were helpful to me over on the 98k board).

Would I be able to shoot my 8mm Mauser rounds through this GEW98?
I'll probably take another look at the 1917/1920 rifle over the weekend and take some photos to post (I may even go ahead and buy it if it looks halfway as nice as I remember - for $275, I don't think I can go too wrong, unless its completely been doctored).
Are the mechs close enough to that of the 98k, that I should focus on those operations when I inspect it again?
What type of things should I look for that are specific to these older models?

Looking forward to expanding my collection and this would be a nice add, at a minimal investment.
I was there looking at the M1's, but those are 2-3 times as much, and I'd need more approval from the "head office" for that kind of outlay!
I read on another thread, something about a bolt that had been scrubbed. Chance that this one had been renumbered? And if so, how to tell if that was an "official" renumbering during the 1917==>1920 upgrade it went through? Instead of some Bubba trying to turn this into an all-matching wanna-be?


Thanks
 
Thanks S.S. and Ryan - good to get your advice once again (you were helpful to me over on the 98k board).

Would I be able to shoot my 8mm Mauser rounds through this GEW98?
I'll probably take another look at the 1917/1920 rifle over the weekend and take some photos to post (I may even go ahead and buy it if it looks halfway as nice as I remember - for $275, I don't think I can go too wrong, unless its completely been doctored).
Are the mechs close enough to that of the 98k, that I should focus on those operations when I inspect it again?
What type of things should I look for that are specific to these older models?

Looking forward to expanding my collection and this would be a nice add, at a minimal investment.
I was there looking at the M1's, but those are 2-3 times as much, and I'd need more approval from the "head office" for that kind of outlay!
I read on another thread, something about a bolt that had been scrubbed. Chance that this one had been renumbered? And if so, how to tell if that was an "official" renumbering during the 1917==>1920 upgrade it went through? Instead of some Bubba trying to turn this into an all-matching wanna-be?


Thanks

You're welcome.

Yes, assuming the barrel has not been replaced or re-chambered post-war, it will be chambered in standard 8mm Mauser. Mechanically it is virtually identical to a K98k. Take notice of the rear sight. If it is "flat" it has been upgraded. Also see if there are any stamps in the wood on the side or the bottom.

As for renumbering of parts, recognizing the difference between legitimate renumbering and fakery is largely a matter of experience. Your best bet is to take the best pics possible of all the major parts (bands, stock, bolt, etc.) The '1920' is only a property stamp, it does not mean that it was necessarily reworked in any way.
 
Yes, S patrone and sS patrone will work equally well in any Modell98 rifle, the rear sight is the issue generally. You do not need S patrone to shoot an Imperial Gewehr98, it will shoot sS patrone just fine. The sS patrone was introduced in 1918 for MG use, it was authorized in 1918 for use in the Gewehr98 in emergency situations. The issue was not safety or even accuracy, rather limited supply and production of the sS patrone.

The mechanics of the interwar Gewehr98 is the same as the K98k, there is no significant difference besides length and bolt handle manipulation. The rear sight should be sS patrone compliant, even if it isn't it will be perfectly safe to use and accuracy at ranges most have access to will work the same. If your rifle has the original Lange rear sight there are some issues for short range shooting, they are set at 400m and naturally short range shooting has to be compensated for.

The things to look for is similar to the K98k, how the rifle is serialed is important, but as Ryan states it takes time to get a feel for what is right and there are too many small things to list in a thread. Stocks should have a take down, they are sometimes sanded during rework, but this only means you need to look for markings that will be original to the rework or upgrade process. Depot markings should be clearer than the Imperial markings... generally what is bad for the K98k is bad or worse for the interwar Gewehr98, they loose value quickly with problems.

The more matching the better. Any sanding, harsh cleaning, fraudulent markings you should look at it as value of parts when purchasing.

Good luck and do some pictures!


Would I be able to shoot my 8mm Mauser rounds through this GEW98? ... Are the mechs close enough to that of the 98k, that I should focus on those operations when I inspect it again?
What type of things should I look for that are specific to these older models?

Thanks
 
It Jumped Into My Car!!!

OK - On the second time around, I couldn't bring myself to leave the shop without this rifle!!
I went back today to give it another look over, based on all your great input, and it simply jumped into my car! (After I paid for it of course).
I'm posting some pictures below, but clearly its not a "Loewe" like I thought, but an Amberg 1917/1920.
Serial number 3198 "d" is matching throughout! Every part that is numbered, has the full 3198, or just 98.
No import marks that I can tell (lots of "key" and "crown" type symbols that I assume are similar to the WaA of the 98k's?)

The bore looks quite good, bright and shiny with nice rifle grooves (do I dare fire this antique???).

Also a very clear and interesting stamping/carving/burning on the buttstock wood of "EWB". Not sure if this is a depot stamping, or a soldier's personalization of his initials (which would be pretty cool IMO).

The only drawback I see, is that its a duffle-cut. Taped over with black electrical tape by some prior owner (not the shop keeper). But in my mind, doesn't this add to the authenticity of it being a true WWII GI bring-back, of a re-arsenal'd WWI original rifle???

The leather strap looks quite old, without markings that I can see, and is separated/severred close to the the buttstock hasp. Any chance of repairing the leather? If not, what can be done to bring back some life to the leather strap? (even though I'll end up removing it and putting it into storage).

The cleaning rod is even numbered "98" as well, but is silver in color, not blued at all. The threads look real, from what I've learned to look for. (original as well??)
Also - there is an interesting muzzle and front sight cover that has a functioning spring-hinged cap. I was able to remove it by pushing and turning the whole assembly, as it was retained by the sight base. Is this a good catch as well? This is the only piece of the rifle that is showing any rust.

The only things missing are the upper buttplate screw and the one rear trigger guard "screw-keeper" screw.

Really looking for someone to poke some holes in this, and tell me that what I've got is not as great as it seems (not really, but would like your inputs regardless).

When I tell you I paid only $275 for this piece, I'm not kidding, and that's what made it impossible to turn away from - even though I wasn't in the market for another German rifle (was really starting to shop for my first M1 Garand for an eventual shopping trip down to the CMP store in Ohio).

Thoughts? Criticisms? Balloon-bursting jabs??

Thanks!
 

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EWB = Einwohnerwehr Bayern = Bavarian Citizens Militia; operated 1919-1921. Same marking found on K98As, G88s, M91 Mosins and Revolvers M79 and M83, P08s, LP08s, C96s, M14 Mausers, and Bavarian contract Steyr M12s. One Steyr M07 has been reported with the brand. Reportedly also on bayonets but nobody seems to be able to produce one to prove it.
 
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You stole, and I mean stole that rifle... the lid is worth better part of $100 probably. Do images of any acceptance or markings, look it over closely as mfg markings are often hidden away or faint logos.

What I find so neat is the 1920 property marking on a EWB, going from recollection that isn't too common... I will have to check on whether others are known, but offhand I do not recall another. Is there a "1920" on the buttstock? Probably not?

I am thinking, if this is a matching stock, that it is a salvaged stock used on this rifle in a subsequent rework, and it is only coincidence that it is a EWB stock on an Amberg/property marked b/r. Considering the RS stock markings this would make the most sense, the E/H over Imperial cypher etc..

Shooting is a personal decision; however it is not in anyway dangerous if the rifle passes the typical things that would apply to the 98k equally. They are the same essentially and of the same quality workmanship-materials. People shoot them all the time, though you should take the same precautions that you would with a 98k.

Do more pictures, right side of receiver, left buttstock, any and all markings you can find, the wrist of the stock, buttplate, - any marking that looks interesting.
 
BTW, do a close up of the acceptance under the E/H on the stock, the one that is overstruck over the sanded Imperial cypher and acceptance?
 
Thanks SS.
The buttstock does have a small 1920.stamped.
I'll post more pix in the morning.
What do you mean by "lid"? The muzzle cap?
 
OK.
I'll need some more guidance into the terminology.
What's the "E/H" on the stock? I'll look for this and then take photos of the acceptance stamp under this, as you requested.
Also looking for some advice on the duffle-cut. What to do here? Can it / should it be repaired? Is there a way to glue it back together to make it more functional?
Also wondering about the cut's location. I remember seeing all the 98k cuts done under the rear band, not in the middle of the fore stock like this one.

Going golfing.
Will take some time this aft to go through my find with more attention.
Thanks,
 

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E/H is Eagle/H (Heer), your picture P1010134

Do a close & clear picture of the acceptance under this large eagle? Also the wrist of the stock area (the narrow part of the stock where your right hand grasps the stock with your finger along the trigger guard - assuming you are right handed) This area is where depot accept rifles, whether interwar or nazi era, this is the typical location, though both can vary in location, this is most typical.

The DC (duffle cut) this is not the best location, most like it at the rear band as there is more meat (wood) to work with and you can hide it better. This location was chosen, I assume, to keep as much length of the stock as possible, often you see them cut closer to the rear sight, which I would think would make it easier to get a good repair but in such a narrow stretch of the stock it might be more difficult. Looks like this one will be more difficult with the cleaning rod situation.

You might ask one of the carpentry inclined collectors for advice here, Craig (Hambone), MauserBill, BiO, or others have a lot of experience with these and can help you better than I can on DC repair.

Try and do images of the rear sight markings too? Buttplate if there are any too?
 
Hi Again,

Here are some more detailed/closer pictures, taken with outside light, so I hope they are clearer.
The Eagle/Heer is quite vivid (#139) - Looks like an Eagle's wings with a crown on top, and an "H" at the bottom.
The "acceptance" stamp that is right below it is photo #140. Not sure what to make of that shape or symbol. Does it look familiar to you.
(Do you have a library/catalog of these stamps for the GEW's, like there exists for the 98k's Waffenamts?)

The wrist markings are on photos #141 and #142. Right behind the trigger guard underside of stock. A 4-digit letters/numbers, maybe "SUIS" or "8U1B"?
Two more Eagle stamps rearward of the larger one.

Behind the rear sling loop is another S/N that matches the rifle on #143.
Thats all the stock markings that I can see without disassembling the metal from the wood.

One minor hiccup that I can see now: The front band/bayo lug has a "98" stamped on the front left facing, but also an X'd-out "4?' below it - photo #155. Maybe a depot replacement??? And an interesting marking on the opposite front right facing on photo #156. What does this look like to you?

I'll start a new reply with some more of the metal markings.
 

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That is a cool rifle, with Spandau rework inspections on the stock. A keeper if you ask me! :thumbsup:
 
That is a cool rifle, with Spandau rework inspections on the stock. A keeper if you ask me! :thumbsup:


Thanks Mike,

I replied to your PM just a bit ago.
What's the details on the "Spandau rework" markings?
Would love to see a catalog of symbols to get more fluent in the markings.
What should I look for after dis-assembling the rifle? Markings inside the stock of my 98k were pretty telling, in that they matched the S/N, and even had date stamps that were in synch with the S/N.

Also would like to know how to approach repairing the duffle-cut on the stock, since its further forward on the fore-stock, and is loose around the barrel now.
 
Thanks Mike,

I replied to your PM just a bit ago.
What's the details on the "Spandau rework" markings?
Would love to see a catalog of symbols to get more fluent in the markings.
What should I look for after dis-assembling the rifle? Markings inside the stock of my 98k were pretty telling, in that they matched the S/N, and even had date stamps that were in synch with the S/N.

Also would like to know how to approach repairing the duffle-cut on the stock, since its further forward on the fore-stock, and is loose around the barrel now.

That is an amazing score! Early Spandau rework and an Einwohner! The eagles with 'Su' on the side and wrist are acceptance stamps from the ordance depot at Spandau where the rifle was repaired or inspected. Do you have any shots of the bolt? I assume it matches as well?

Here is a link on repairing the cut: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?3289-Duffle-cut-repair-(pics. Its your rifle and your call, but I would personally clean off the tape gunk and leave it alone.
 

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