Mauser MS420 clipfed first serie

I have recently own this rifle. The rifle matchs all numbers, including the stock (the number is engraved in the wood under the barrel).

I have 2 questions :

1. I haven't see anywhere the false magazine in wood (convers from MS to ES - no markings), neither in Jon's Smallbores or on the internet. Do you have any informations about it ? The circles on the magazin strangly looks like the one on the grip of the single shot Mauser .22 Pistol, page 38 of Jon's Smallbores. The years of making seems to be similar - 1924... May be the same worker ?

2. No Mauser stamp on the right side of the stock... Your opinion ?

Greethings from France

Tiger

NB : I post the same message on Gunboards - please don't answer twice...

Very nice gun

Can offer you opinions only.

I agree with the similarity of the circle marking applied to other Oberndorf products of the period.

The stock does not look refinished to me and is of a grade that likely required special order. That also could account for the absence of the trademark applied to the right rear of the stock in the typical manner.

My speculation is this gun was special ordered.


Very nice piece!

Thanks a lot for your feedback ! Please join the discussion on Gunboards, Raul think that the mag adaptor is an original part from Mauser !

Tiger

the wooden plug looks entirely amateur home made to make a rifle with missing clip usable - you can easily see the rough shaping/finishing marks (probably shaped using a hand held rasp), and lines and edgings and general finish look out of character with commercial Mauser standards

if you want a sure answer if the stock was original made without the Mauser logo you need to measure the thickness of the stock with calipers and compare that to a original standard thickness stock - it may be original or thinned and logo sanded off

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tiger_jedi said:

Thanks a lot for your feedback ! Please join the discussion on Gunboards, Raul think that the mag adaptor is an original part from Mauser !

Tiger

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maxximmumm said:

the wooden plug looks entirely amateur home made to make a rifle with missing clip usable - you can easily see the rough shaping/finishing marks (probably shaped using a hand held rasp), and lines and edgings and general finish look out of character with commercial Mauser standards

if you want a sure answer if the stock was original made without the Mauser logo you need to measure the thickness of the stock with calipers and compare that to a original standard thickness stock - it may be original or thinned and logo sanded off

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Use of Single shot adapters for the few repeaters that were sold in that era was quite common. Regulations for competition shooting required the gun could only be fired single shot. These were available also from the various retail firms such as GECO and Akah. Considerable wear to the wooden plug and marring is to be expected over the course of 80 plus years. The circle logo is consistent with a Mauser Oberndorf pattern not normally seen.

Checkering, sharp edges around finger grooves, mating areas to the buttplate are not indicative of post production sanding. That and the matching numbers in barrel channel are indicative of this stock being factory installed. That grade of wood would not have been furnished with out special order.

At that point in time, for enough money, the buyer could get anything he wanted.

That baby could sit in my collection any day!

I say again, "NICE PIECE"

All the markings...

Enclosed all the markings on the weapon : it's sunday, I've time to shoot the pictures !
What is the gothic symbol on the barrel and the trigger gear ? A "M" ?

Tiger

Good pictures

The 20 is relative to the steel quality and or firm suppling steel barrel blank.

The script M and gothic M appear radomly on all M.O. products and are controversial as to exact purpose but in general I believe a quality inspection process mark/indicator.

Confident from these photos that the stock was originally installed by Mauser. Whether or not it was post production altered, will likely remain controversial.

Some things just aren't an exact science 80 years after the fact.

Your quest for more knowledge about your gun is a trait I admire in any collector.

Just don't expect to ever know conclusively.

The only person you have to satisfy is yourself.

If others opinions leave you un-happy with the piece you may certainly bring it to the US and park it at my house.

GOOD COLLECTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks a lot Mauser22. May be I will one day come for the first time in my life to the US, so I have a chance to have look on your collection ! If you are in the future in France, it will be a pleasure for me to show you the beautifull town of Lyon, and of course my little smallbores collection !

I will try to post next week a new thread with an ES340, hope I will receveid it on monday or thursday... The weapon seems to be very interesting...

think you missed my point - stock is made on pantograph and logo applied later so if it was custome ordered sans logo which he was wanting confirmation of then if the caliper measure of thickness at point where logo would appear equals that of a stock with logo you get your anwser of yes its original

if the thickness is less it is possible some re-finishing has removed logo

the stock would not have been hand-made just a better flich in the panto

as for wooden clip - you do acknowledge after market possibility other than Mauser and thats not that far from my opinion it is not a Mauser item which also was his question (or theory)

for a ms420 its got very very good quality wood in the stock, but imo nothing that shouts custom - just standard b-plate and so so quality checkering

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mauser22 said:

Use of Single shot adapters for the few repeaters that were sold in that era was quite common. Regulations for competition shooting required the gun could only be fired single shot. These were available also from the various retail firms such as GECO and Akah. Considerable wear to the wooden plug and marring is to be expected over the course of 80 plus years. The circle logo is consistent with a Mauser Oberndorf pattern not normally seen.

Checkering, sharp edges around finger grooves, mating areas to the buttplate are not indicative of post production sanding. That and the matching numbers in barrel channel are indicative of this stock being factory installed. That grade of wood would not have been furnished with out special order.

At that point in time, for enough money, the buyer could get anything he wanted.

That baby could sit in my collection any day!

I say again, "NICE PIECE"

Click to expand...

Measure of thickness

I will do that today and give you the result. What is the theoric value ? I don't have another MS420 of this early period to make the comparaison...

Tiger

Wish I could help

Don't have access to one of that era to measure.

I suspect that measuring several would be necessary and likely would result in very different readings.

Stock sanding at production is illustrated in various works as done to some extent on power belts, then no doubt some hand sanding, different workers over period of production. IF special order likely would have had much more attention to detail and variance further likely.

Just for grins, I did use calipers to measure a M.O. .22 model of which I had more than one done within months of each other. Out of three, variance was well over 1/8 inch on original finish stock.

Frankly, doubt that approach could substantiate anything prove or disprove.

I would quit worrying about it were it mine.

Nothing you could do short of a "time tranporter" to witness the gun being made would prove conclusive.

It is what it is.

Also the grey areas some of the intrigue of collecting.

Also the source of varying opinions and respectful debate.

That is an inherent aspect of collecting and part of what this forum should be about.

All the opinons being offered you here by others are well founded.

Gather all the information you can, weigh all the opinions you can get, in the end form your own.

mauser22 - you're right about that

as an afterthought, putting higher quality wood on a european made rifle may be a sign of a importers sales reps display model or display model for a higher end retailer - you know, the potential buyer comes in sees the better quality wood display model - metal finish is usually just standard - and places an order and .............later lo and behold his order arrives, with plainer wood..........