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View Full Version : M.91/30 PU Izhevsk '43 Sniper



Hambone
09-03-2012, 07:19 PM
I bought a number of these, cherry picked, from a Maryland dealer, $500 each, in 1997 or 1998. They were hand picked from CAI imports then. I sold the others, kept this one. All parts, even the small parts, are stamped with the Ishevsk arsenal triangle/arrow stamp. The bore on it is mirror new and crisp. Doesn't look reworked. All parts are stamped matching, no line outs, not any real evident grinding and numbering over. The mount is electro-pencilled postwar. Any information is appreciated.

Hambone
09-03-2012, 07:21 PM
more pics......

jjjxlr8
09-03-2012, 07:23 PM
Wouldn't the mount number on the receiver (as well as the ep'd # on the mount) indicate a postwar re-work of some type? She's a beauty, regardless.

RyanE
09-03-2012, 08:24 PM
With the later (post-1941) Soviet weapons, it is harder to judge what is original IMO. Germans captured large stocks of pre-41 guns and some of them ended up in the hands of GIs in 45. That is apparently not the case with later guns. I see the occasional pre or early war Mosin that is original, but I haven't seen any non-refurb guns 1942 or later. Did the Soviets move from varnish to shellac after 1941? I have no idea. I tried to get some of the Mosin collectors on GB to post some original guns like mine, maybe educate the community with original untouched examples, but everybody spends their time discussing boring, non-collectible $70 post-war refurbs and Finish rifles. It is like having a forum dedicated entirely to discussing RC K98ks.:facepalm::facepalm:

That said, it is a super PU that probably did get a once over at a Soviet warehouse in the 60's. Stock is unsanded with the wartime-applied cartouches and the parts appear to have the original numbers, so the rifle is probably "as manufactured". I once had a 44 Tula PU in similar condition. The base gun was original, and the only things that had been done was the sanding and re-shellacking of the stock and that the mount and scope were renumbered to match the rifle.

Ham, you might check to see if the circular inspection next to the CCCP cartouche is also found on somewhere on the barrel. Also, see if the inside of the receiver is in the white. I know for a fact they are before 1942, but I don't know if that changed later.

mike radford
09-03-2012, 08:40 PM
Very nice PU which appears to be about as original as you can find. The rifle checks out on the Izhevsk sniper list in a block of 1943 PUs. Your scope was made my Progress in 43 and shows no rebuild markings. The barrel shank and right buttstock lack refurb marks as well. The only thing that looks unlike it would when it left the factory is the mount is numbered to the rifle, which was added sometimes afterward, even though the mount is quite possibly original to the rifle, is an Izhevsk mount and the alignment scribe is clearly lined up with the original scope. Looks like all the original numbered parts are there and the stock is an Izhevsk with no obvious refinish.

Although 43 Izhevsk is the most common of the production PUs, they are as good as any in my experience. Outstanding PU IMO.

The receiver number mentioned by jjjxlr8 is Century's attempt to translate the Soviet number and have a receiver number upon import. That number and the barrel marking are the only import markings. Early Century and Coles have the best/minimal import markings.

Hambone
09-03-2012, 09:32 PM
Thank you Ryan, Mike. That was particularly helpful and my hunches about those things are why I kept this one. I had four of them, all stamped matching, bought three to resell, one to keep. Wish I had kept one other. This one appealed because of all the little Ishevsk markings and details such as that scope scribe marking. The bore on it is mint, mirror nice and looks about unfired. I wish CAI had not popped their version of the serial in the receiver because the barrel import mark is very tiny and light. It is my understanding that the electro pencil on the mount is later, 60s, for storage in those chests with the rifles they went with.

tokarev38
03-12-2014, 08:53 PM
I have 43 Izhevsk PU that is a Vietnam bring back. It has no import marks and finish is original. I found it without scope, but with original rail. Later I got matching condition scope and mount. Condition is fair as expected for 2 wars veteran, but it is not refinished like many others. All numbers are stamped matching.
Some photos I have on my computer. If someone is interested I can take some more and with the scope. Those numbers on buttplate are only alteration after Soviet use. Maybe Vietnamese applied?
Jack

Dave Roberts
03-12-2014, 09:33 PM
I bought a number of these, cherry picked, from a Maryland dealer, $500 each, in 1997 or 1998. They were hand picked from CAI imports then. I sold the others, kept this one. All parts, even the small parts, are stamped with the Ishevsk arsenal triangle/arrow stamp. The bore on it is mirror new and crisp. Doesn't look reworked. All parts are stamped matching, no line outs, not any real evident grinding and numbering over. The mount is electro-pencilled postwar. Any information is appreciated.

Craig
If that Electro Pencil # on the Mount bothers You , I will gladly take it off Your hands . This is Exactly the Condition PU Sniper I have been wanting to add to my Collection . Best Regards
:thumbsup:

8x57mauser
03-12-2014, 11:06 PM
I have 43 Izhevsk PU that is a Vietnam bring back. It has no import marks and finish is original. I found it without scope, but with original rail. Later I got matching condition scope and mount. Condition is fair as expected for 2 wars veteran, but it is not refinished like many others. All numbers are stamped matching.
Some photos I have on my computer. If someone is interested I can take some more and with the scope. Those numbers on buttplate are only alteration after Soviet use. Maybe Vietnamese applied?
Jack


That's a beauty, I'd much rather have that then one of my minty imports

agentcq
03-13-2014, 12:48 AM
Nice sniper! What I really like is that you still have a strong stock cartouche.

You often see cartouches or remnants of cartouches on refurb SVT's (Either a CCCP roundel, the 'A' representing an AVT stock, or a Tula star with date), but it is quite rare to see a decent or strong stock cartouche on a refurb'd Mosin Nagant, let alone on a sniper.

As stated the refurb process likely happened in the late 1950's and 1960's and often the scopes were refurb'd and the year they were refurb'd stamped on the scope. Many scopes simply had a box stamped on them or a box with a slash indicating they were refurb'd. Some scopes were not refurb'd or if they were, no markings applied. Just like RC K98's, the process the Soviets used during the refurb process seems random at best.

To have a matching rifle even if it is forced matched with electro pencil is a bonus too!

Many usually have a lined out and forced matched butt plates, magazine plates, or some rifles have other parts randomly electro penciled to match. Sometimes you still come across an all matching stamped rifle (including stamped mount). There is much debate over whether these all matching stamped rifles are truly all matching or forced matched with stamping versus electro penciling.

Many refurb SVT rifles have a stamped matching trigger guard versus the more common electro penciled trigger guard. So...the question is do these rifle's retain the original trigger guard? Or are they forced stamped matching trigger guards?

About a year and a half ago Molot started exporting tons of these snipers into Canada and many junior collectors thought they were not original and fakes/clones. Well, the answer was these rifles are not WWII original but they are assembled with refurb'd but original WWII parts (except for the odd postwar stock including laminate stocks). What was interesting is under the front hand guard Molot laser etched the barrel to say "Made in Russia" to pass export rules and made a small laser engraving of the Molot Crest on the underside of the bolt handle. Luckily these markings are hidden and Canada doesn't have the import markings like the US.

Even more interesting is that Molot was supposed to destroy several WWII arms to comply with the UN, but that they "produced" these "new" rifles.

agentcq
03-13-2014, 12:50 AM
Ohh, if looking at these rifles try to find a 1942 dated rifle.

The Tula and Izzy 1943 and 1944 rifles are more common. I have never seen a 1942 with scope. Only a 1942 ex-sniper converted back to a standard 91/30.

Hambone
03-13-2014, 10:36 AM
To have a matching rifle even if it is forced matched with electro pencil is a bonus too!


The rifle is numbered to the scope as from the factory and the mount scribe lines match, and the mount is correct and shows grinding and fitting. As from the factory in WW2 I believe the mounts were not numbered to the rifles. The rifle barrel shank was stamped with the scope number, as this one is, and the scopes/mounts treated as one unit, not to be separated. I think the electro pencil was added when the rifle and scope were put to storage in the 50s-60s, thus it's factory original, just with the added electro pencil per the storage regs. The same was done to No.4 Mk1(T) snipers. Added mount numbers to make sure the rifles and original wartime scopes and mounts would be mated back up easily if taken out of storage.

RyanE
03-13-2014, 11:29 AM
What Hambone said. Mounts were not numbered to the rifle originally. The EP numbers were added before the rifles were packed away in long term storage. Apparently, only Izhevsk stamped the scope number on the barrel shank, and the Tula numbers were only stamped later on. I haven't studied this so I can't vouch for it. There is a lot of bad info floating around on the Mosin stuff, so I have to study everything myself.

Agentcq, with a little practice it isn't that hard to tell the original factory stamped prefix/serial numbers from the post-war depot stamped prefix/numbers.

mike radford
03-13-2014, 11:50 AM
Originally on WW2 PUs made at Izhevsk, the scope/mount package was matched by stamping the scope number on the barrel shank as you see with Hambone's impressive rifle. Tula, on the other hand, matched the scope/mount package by stamping the mount with the rifle's serial number. All kinds of rematching and renumbering, both with electropencil and/or stamping, occurred as these guns were sent back to arsenals, sometimes multiple times.

Kammerjaeger
03-18-2014, 10:16 PM
Hambone - You may find the attached of interest. It is a summary of importers of Mosin-Nagant snipers from the Russian Mosin Nagant Forum, of which I am a member in good standing..

http://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=15038


KJ