1912 Danzig K98a

Hello!

Earlier this year I picked up a K98a manufactured by the Danzig arsenal in 1912.
No photos at the current moment, but I'll try and get some posted soon.

I have a few questions about the rifle, as I've had it a while but never been able to figure out anything about its history.

Its serial number is 2043, all numbers match except for the bolt. No Russian Capture or 1920 rework markings whatsoever.
The bore is good, though when I bought the rifle, the barrel had been slightly unscrewed (sights were tilted right a bit). Markings along the side of the lange-vizier sight indicate a crappy attempt at removing the barrel, though that's just my guess. I had the barrel tightened correctly a while back, however. The lange-vizier was also bent slightly, I had that corrected as well.

I also notice that the stock and wooden hand guard were both cut right where the barrel band holds them together. I epoxied them back together with some loctite stuff, it's held up remarkably well thus far.

The stock, besides being cut, is in pretty well-used shape. Lots of dents, dings, and the butt of the stock was smashed badly at one point, evidenced by an area filled in with wood filler and a large crack repaired sometime in the past by wood glue and a nail that manages to lie flush with the wood. All of the usual approval markings, such as the one on the wood just behind the trigger guard, and the markings on the right side of the butt of the stock are clearly visible.

I don't see any unit markings, or anything else, for that matter, on the buttplate tang. Because of this, I'm wondering if this rifle was ever issued to a unit. The buttplate's serial number matches all of the other parts, and is in like condition, so I'm quite certain it's the original. Any ideas as to why a pre-war rifle would have no unit markings? I'm just curious as to how the rifle got to America, and how much damage may have been done to it in Europe as opposed to over here.

Sorry for the novel, this is just one of those mysteries that has slowly driven me mad over the past eight months!

Welcome to the forum, it will be difficult to tell you much without pictures, but just because the buttplate or stock has the proper serial number doesn't necessarily mean it is the original factory stock.

The "1920" marking isn't a rework stamp, it is a property stamp, we have a thread that discusses this in detail in the interwar forum on this site. Not all rifles that served in the interwar period will have the marking. Other things will give clues to whether it stayed in German hands, like the follower, sometimes the rear sight, the bolt, if matching, sometimes the barrel, but most of all the stock.

This topic comes up sometimes, why a pre-war rifle doesn't have a unit marking, no book really discusses why, and not enough original rifles have been documented to even guess at how common the practice was. You can get a feel for which maker-dates went to which service or unit in some narrow ranges, - KS rifles are usually 1900-1901 Spandau's, KM rifles are usually 1899-1903 DWM's, Cavalry units grouped in 1909 production, etc.. but beyond that no one knows why some rifles were not unit marked. Possibly because they were not issued at the time to an active unit, very often Sg98 bayonets, often very early ones, were not marked and are like new, which is hard to make much of beyond speculation. Further unit marking went through phases of implementation, closer to the war changes were made to how they were applied, if at all.

Perhaps the answer (period document or observation) is in one of the many books available, books from Joachim Görtz, Jeff Noll, Anthony Carter, etc.. but short of thumbing through them I do not know for sure. CB is the go to guy on period German documents, he can (and often does) cite documents or German language books when there is one available.

About the history of the 1920 property marking:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?5741-The-1920-Property-Mark

Thank you for the reply, and for the info on the 1920 markings. Very interesting to find out what they actually signify.

I've taken some photos, not having much luck uploading them unfortunately. Will try again in a bit after I find out why my internet is moving so slowly.
Among the photos taken are a couple of the damage to the stock, as well as some of the proof markings. Nothing unique, so far as I can tell, I'm assuming they are just factory/inspection approval marks.

About the unit markings, I'd always believed that it was uniform practice to unit mark 98s in Imperial German service, so it's good news that my rifle may not be an oddball just for being unmarked.

Also, out of curiosity, now that the stock is in one piece again, how is the barrel band to be removed, if it ever does need to be removed in the future? I mean the single-piece band, not the hinged one, of course. Does the bayonet lug need to be unpinned and removed? It appears that is the only way the barrel band will come off, as it will not fit around both the foresight and the bayo lug. Just another unique 98a oddity, I suppose.
Come to think of it, this is probably the very reason some bonehead sawed the stock.

Sorry, there's no "lange-vizier" rear sight on the K98a... if there was that would have been a real beast!

Cheers

feldmütze said:

Sorry, there's no "lange-vizier" rear sight on the K98a... if there was that would have been a real beast!

Cheers

Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry about that, got my terminology wrong there. Though it certainly would have been!

The inspection-acceptance stamps will help tell if it is the original stock.

The rear band is held by a screw, through the stock then screws into the other side of the band, sometimes it won't screw in, either because the screw is damaged at the end or the hole is wallered out. The bayonet lug does not have to be removed, remove the trigger guard, slide the rear band off the stock, remove handguard, lift action out and the rear band will lift with it.. as I recall, I haven't disassembled one in a few years, but the B-Lug doesn't have to be removed.

HarvardBlue said:

Also, out of curiosity, now that the stock is in one piece again, how is the barrel band to be removed, if it ever does need to be removed in the future? I mean the single-piece band, not the hinged one, of course. Does the bayonet lug need to be unpinned and removed? It appears that is the only way the barrel band will come off, as it will not fit around both the foresight and the bayo lug. Just another unique 98a oddity, I suppose.
Come to think of it, this is probably the very reason some bonehead sawed the stock.

Click to expand...

SimsonSuhl said:

The inspection-acceptance stamps will help tell if it is the original stock.

The rear band is held by a screw, through the stock then screws into the other side of the band, sometimes it won't screw in, either because the screw is damaged at the end or the hole is wallered out. The bayonet lug does not have to be removed, remove the trigger guard, slide the rear band off the stock, remove handguard, lift action out and the rear band will lift with it.. as I recall, I haven't disassembled one in a few years, but the B-Lug doesn't have to be removed.

Click to expand...

Right, I'll try once again to post some pictures. I'm willing to bet it is original, given the aged condition and matching serials on the wood, but it would be nice to have a bit more confirmation on this.

Indeed, the band is secured properly by the screw on my rifle, though I wouldn't have guessed that it would be necessary to remove the action to remove the band. It makes sense, though. Thanks, this will certainly save me a bit of head-scratching if I ever need to remove the barrel band again in the future.


Full shot of the rifle.


The stamped marks on the right side of the butt of the stock.


The stamp on the underside of the stock, just behind the trigger guard.


Another stamp, in the groove where the end of the sling rests.


The various approval stamps on the side of the receiver. None have the RC Revision Committee marking above them.


A top shot of the receiver.


The damage to the butt of the stock. This is the side with wood filler, clearly seen as the light patch.


Another photo further showing the cracking that has been repaired with a nail.


Left side of the receiver.


Underneath the flip-up sight.


Yipes, now that I look at them, some of these images are of very poor quality. My apologies. My camera is junk. Hopefully something meaningful can be gathered from these images, though.

Not great pictures but the wrist stamp is a Danzig acceptance commonly found in this range, one of the more reliable acceptance stamps for Danzig, I am sure it is the original stock, if the stock is serialed to the receiver.

1912 is a high production year for Danzig, while there are less documented than 1909, more are estimated to have been made (by serial range studies). Only in 1918 is it estimated that Danzig made more Kar98a than they did in 1912.

HarvardBlue said:

Right, I'll try once again to post some pictures. I'm willing to bet it is original, given the aged condition and matching serials on the wood, but it would be nice to have a bit more confirmation on this.

Click to expand...

Very cool, I appreciate the confirmation.

Just a few more questions, while I'm at it:
I've been reading lately that original WWI-era Mausers had receivers and bolts "in the white"- no bluing. I've seen some factory-condition G98s with white receivers and bolts, but I can't find any solid, non-conflicting evidence to show whether or not this was the case with K98a's.

I would imagine it would be the same for K98s as for G98s, but the receiver appears to have very old and worn bluing with a considerable amount of silver peeking through. I would just go ahead and scrub it clean, but I'm afraid to do that if that's actually a thin bluing that's still just hanging on.
I'm fairly certain the bolts were white, even if the receivers weren't, but the bolt handle appears very dark. Am I correct in assuming that that is just tarnish from years of handling or just lack of polishing?

If the receiver and/or bolt weren't factory blued in that era, then I suppose it doesn't matter what comes off during the cleaning process anyways.

EDIT:
I'm also seeing claims that the bayonet lug was in the white, and it looks like that MAY be the case with my rifle, as underneath the areas where the forward barrel band covers it, the lug is indeed an even silver, and everywhere that's exposed is the same darkish color as the rest of the rifle. Not very likely to be abrasion to bluing, I would think, but then again, the barrel has the same wear on its bluing underneath the forward band.

Thanks for all the help thus far.

Gewehr98's have bright metal receivers and bolts, the Kar.98a have blued receivers and bright bolts. Whatever you do, avoid any harsh cleaning or abrasives, especially on the stock.

Bayonet lugs were hardened in a way to give it a different appearance, I think they call it straw colored. Several parts are like this, the rear sight spring, trigger, etc.. MauserBill once did a list, I will see if I can find a copy and post it. Not sure if it was only for the Gewehr98 though...

Just a last word, rushing into a cleaning is rarely a good idea, haste will almost always make things worse, on occasion I still do it, acting before thinking, and it was a bad habit 30 years ago and it still is today.

MauserBill's list of component finish

These are two old posts (probably from Gunboards) from MauserBill, one of the main collectors that helped my entry into Imperial rifles back in 1998. This is in regards to the Gewehr98, but applies to the Kar.98a in many ways. The Kar.98a receiver is blued of course, it is the main difference.

Subject: original finish Gew98
Message:

Parts in the white :

1) complete bolt assembly
2) receiver
3) follower
4) bayonet lug
5) buttplate
6) recoil lug
7) unit disc and or takedown washer assy.
8) cleaning rod
9) trigger
10) sear

The balance of the rifle was blued - with the slight exception of the rear sight graduations on the barrel being buffed bright for easier reading - considering if it still has the original lange visier sight leaf.
Previous to 1919 there are no exceptions to these details in finish. - none ! .

Bill.
01/07/2002



This seems to be so often asked ?. Anyhow the blued parts on gew98's are :

1) Barrel
2) triggergaurd & floorplate
3) bands
4) rear sight assy
5) buttplate screws
6) Q/D sling boss & it's screws

Everything else was a dull bright polished part with the exception of the trigger & bandsprings. These were actually sort of straw colored from the tempering process and not actually blued. MauserBill
05/04/03

MauserBill on the Kar98a - 2001

The Kar98a was from the beginning issued and made with a blued receiver. The bolt, bayonet lug, butt plate , recoil cross bolt , rear sight leaf spring , trigger/sear and follower were all bright finished to be specific.

Bill.

MauserBill 9.13.2001

Wow, quite a load of information there, thanks a ton for clearing this up!

The bluing on my rifle's receiver must be really abused then, there is a ton of steel showing through it. Guess I'll have to take extra good care of that.

I gave the buttplate and bolt handle a bit of gentle brass brush scrubbing/oiling, it did remove a lot of dark corrosion from them but I'm afraid the bolt handle will need a more advanced approach to restore its shine. At least it's smooth now.
I'm aware that rushing a cleaning is a bad idea, so as much as I hate to do it, I'm going to have to hold off on any further cleaning until I do some more research on what's best for these rifles.

Also, interesting that the trigger and sear were originally shined, the trigger on mine looks to have about the same consistency as the floorplate/triggerguard at this point(!)
I guess that will also need some real deep treatment when I get around to a full cleanup.

Of the shined parts listed, many of them appear mostly untarnished. Good news.

Hey there, one last question.
Reading around, it would seem that the cut under the band is a potential duffel cut. Is this possible? I thought the duffel cut was more of a WWII phenomenon, but the rifle doesn't have any of the aspects of a rifle that stayed in German hands after WWI- no notch in the follower, unblued bolt, etc.
How common were duffel cuts in WWI?

The trigger will often have a blued appearance due to tempering, sometimes it is just a streak of blue or a an unusual combination of colors.

DC's are common on Imperial rifles, many were taken back this way. It was more common to see full rifles come back after WWI, than WWII, but DC were common. There was a picture sold about a year ago of US GI's coming back after WWI carrying a Kar.98a aboard ship, I bid on it but lost the auction, but I have the pictures saved. I will try and post them here, this type of picture isn't common but I have seen similar pictures before, US GI's with rifles carried back, - never seen one after WWII showing US GI's doing the same...

Aha, that would make sense, in regards to the trigger.

Thanks for sharing the pics, very interesting to see soldiers openly carrying full rifles home (and wearing pickelhaube, quite a strange curio to find and bring back in 1918, I would imagine!)