Third Party Press

Erfurt 1915 with "M" stamp on the stock from Turkey

evrenay

Member
I recently bought this rifle here in Eskişehir / Turkey.
I won't write a lot but let the photos speak.

By the way I don't know why the letter "M" is stamped on the stock, as far as I know "M" stands for Kaiserlichemarine (Imperial Navy).
Can anybody help me with this issue.

P1030928.jpg

P1030929.jpg

P1030934.jpg

P1030931.jpg



This is what I was writing about the "M" stamp: There is a larger "M" and a smaller "M" on the stock.
P1030932.jpg

P1030933.jpg


Some other close photos of the Erfurt
P1030930.jpg

P1030931.jpg

P1030938.jpg

P1030939.jpg


Bolt and the rifle doesn't have matching numbers.
I don't know if it is common but I couldn't believe that they are not matching, because of the good condition of the rifle.

P1030940.jpg

P1030941.jpg

P1030942.jpg

Rear sight
P1030943.jpg

Firing pin
P1030946.jpg



Last weekend I shot with it, using Sellier&Bellot 8x57 JS (since it is the only ammunition we get here). It is also a fine shooter .
 
Well the good news is the sling looks original, though for a Gewehr98, - interesting method of attaching it.

The rifle is not a naval (KM or Kaiserlichen Marine) rifle, I do not really see anything to suggest it and the Kar.98a generally wasn't used in naval service. You do see some of the naval forces that were deployed to the western front, along the coastal areas, armed with Kar.98a rifles, but they were probably not marked in any special way. I have never seen a Kar.98a with naval fireproofing or acceptance from the "Imperial" era, though some exist in the interwar period (Reichsmarine).

Most of the naval Gewehr98's that have KM markings were uniquely marked because they were part of a naval contract. This contract seems to have been completed by 1908, no rifle has been encountered after 1908 with KM fireproofing or acceptance patterns. Though there are reports of rifles after 1908 with naval unit markings, none have been confirmed or documented. Jeff Noll reported a Spandau/1913 but I have not seen it or confirmed how it is proofed and acceptanced.
 
What happened to the front sight ? , and I assume the stacking hook has been cut off as well ?.
 
What happened to the front sight ? , and I assume the stacking hook has been cut off as well ?.

Actually I have no idea what happened to the front sight, however I can clearly tell that the stacking hook is not sawn off.

I do not see any signs of machining on the metal plate.
However they might have changed it or it might be manufactured like that (I don't know if there are any Erfurts without the hook).
Sorry but I am really inexperienced with these rifles.


At the beginning I thought this rifle might belong to inventory of one of the two ships which passed from Germany to the Ottoman Empire. You know SMS Goeben and SMS Breslau from which the German soldiers were clothed like Ottomans and attacked Russian installations along the Black Sea coast.

Although this has happened in year 1914, who knows may be the Germans got ordnance supply from motherland.
Ok, I accept the my fantasies are going beyond reality, but I don't know how to explain those two "M" stamps on the stock.


Can anyone tell me what the "M" means on the stock?
 
Are you speaking of the "M" in the sling cutout? Some kind of random marking, who knows perhaps Turkish applied?

As for German ordnance supply to Turkey, that was one of the most problematic aspects of their relationship (alliance), and considering all the difficulties involved, Germany (and Bulgaria & Turkey) would have been better off if they had stayed neutral. While Turkey did draw significant Allied forces from the main theaters of war, the cost to Germany of propping up Turkey financially and militarily was enormous, it also eventually necessitated a campaign against Serbia and Rumania for the Germans when they least could spare the resources.

There are a number of books in German on this topic, regarding the German efforts to financially support and supply Turkey and Bulgaria, but the short of it, as it relates to supply of arms to Turkey, they didn't occur in significant numbers (1914-1916 efforts were made, first working with Rumania, then using the Danube river, they were not sufficient or practical due to Serbian efforts) before 1917 when the Serbians and Rumanians finally were removed from the supply line and a rail line was re-established. This is why you see so many 1917-1918 Mauser made Gewehr98's from Turkey. They were hustled down to Turkey along with the more critical ammunition & war material that was in desperate need.
 
Are you speaking of the "M" in the sling cutout? Some kind of random marking, who knows perhaps Turkish applied?

As for German ordnance supply to Turkey, that was one of the most problematic aspects of their relationship (alliance), and considering all the difficulties involved, Germany (and Bulgaria & Turkey) would have been better off if they had stayed neutral. While Turkey did draw significant Allied forces from the main theaters of war, the cost to Germany of propping up Turkey financially and militarily was enormous, it also eventually necessitated a campaign against Serbia and Rumania for the Germans when they least could spare the resources.

There are a number of books in German on this topic, regarding the German efforts to financially support and supply Turkey and Bulgaria, but the short of it, as it relates to supply of arms to Turkey, they didn't occur in significant numbers (1914-1916 efforts were made, first working with Rumania, then using the Danube river, they were not sufficient or practical due to Serbian efforts) before 1917 when the Serbians and Rumanians finally were removed from the supply line and a rail line was re-established. This is why you see so many 1917-1918 Mauser made Gewehr98's from Turkey. They were hustled down to Turkey along with the more critical ammunition & war material that was in desperate need.

Thank you very much for your genius suggestion about the "M" marking as writing: "Some kind of random marking, who knows perhaps Turkish applied?" and the unnecessary and partly wrong extra information.

Putting Ottoman Empire in the same league with countries like Bulgaria and Romania, which were for hundreds of years under Ottoman regime, was also very intelligent of yours.

By the way if I were you I would read the history of Mauser Werke and see who financed whom (in year 1887, 500.000 rifles were ordered by Ottoman to Mauser in Oberndorf (may be you should ask yourself why Mauser has a oriental style house in its compound) and hundred million of ammunition which were produced and sold by Loewe and co to Ottoman Empire.

Not to mention hundreds of cannons sold by Krupp to Ottoman army.

By the way Ottoman payed five hundred thousand gold Liras for both of the ships (Goeben and Breslau) which were escaping from English Navy in the Aegean.

Ottoman, later on Turkish Republic had to pay every cent they borrowed in order to pay for arming.

Lange rede kurzer sinn; at the end of the war Ottoman Empire shrunk from 5.500.000 square kilometers down to 800.000 square kilometers. Lost all its ground in Africa, at Balkans (Greece (including the Aegean islands), Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia), Caucasia, Irak, Palestine (todays Israel was Ottoman ground until just after the war, may be I should refresh your mind).
Part of Balkans were already lost and Bulgaria and Greece had already declared their independence before wartime, however getting in the war with Germans had only made the situation worst.

All were lost because a Turkish general called Enver (whose political party was called İttahat ve Terakki) who had influence on the Ottoman regime and supported very strongly by Germans in order to protect their interests (such as petrol) at east. I suggest you read Kaiser I. Wilhelm's ideas about east.

First World War caused great sorrow and suffer on Turkish land, which was tried to be invaded by Greek (with heavy English support), French and Italian just after the war. Which, this time, was a disappointment for them. Still no gains from cooperating with Germans.


Da ich auch Deutsch lesen, schreiben und sprechen kann, ich werde sagen; it is not always like that as you read in German books.

May be they should find other reasons why they lost both of the World Wars and should accuse themselves then the other nations who helped them in both of the wars.

Last but not least, Turkish Republic was this time intelligent enough not to join both of the sides and stay neutral in the Second World War, while all other European countries suffer under violence and heavy conditions of the war.

And this time the Germans lost the war again! They weren't supporting the Turks this time(I have already written above, one should find more effective excuses for his failures) and nevertheless the inevitable happened again.

Anyway I do not believe it is the place to discuss history.

Let me read about Paul Mauser's great invention and be fascinated by this magnificent mechanism.

I wish you a happy and pleasant day.
 
If only your comprehension of English were matched by your overblown pride about your country's history...

Turkey was economically and military feeble by any standard in 1914, it was no match for even another limited war in the Balkans, needless to say involvement in a war of the scale it entered. Germany was foolish to encourage Turkey's involvement, as was Turkey for not knowing its limitations.

Thank you very much for your genius suggestion about the "M" marking as writing: "Some kind of random marking, who knows perhaps Turkish applied?" and the unnecessary and partly wrong extra information.

Putting Ottoman Empire in the same league with countries like Bulgaria and Romania, which were for hundreds of years under Ottoman regime, was also very intelligent of yours.

By the way if I were you I would read the history of Mauser Werke and see who financed whom (in year 1887, 500.000 rifles were ordered by Ottoman to Mauser in Oberndorf (may be you should ask yourself why Mauser has a oriental style house in its compound) and hundred million of ammunition which were produced and sold by Loewe and co to Ottoman Empire.

Not to mention hundreds of cannons sold by Krupp to Ottoman army.

By the way Ottoman payed five hundred thousand gold Liras for both of the ships (Goeben and Breslau) which were escaping from English Navy in the Aegean.

Ottoman, later on Turkish Republic had to pay every cent they borrowed in order to pay for arming.

Lange rede kurzer sinn; at the end of the war Ottoman Empire shrunk from 5.500.000 square kilometers down to 800.000 square kilometers. Lost all its ground in Africa, at Balkans (Greece (including the Aegean islands), Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia), Caucasia, Irak, Palestine (todays Israel was Ottoman ground until just after the war, may be I should refresh your mind).
Part of Balkans were already lost and Bulgaria and Greece had already declared their independence before wartime, however getting in the war with Germans had only made the situation worst.

All were lost because a Turkish general called Enver (whose political party was called İttahat ve Terakki) who had influence on the Ottoman regime and supported very strongly by Germans in order to protect their interests (such as petrol) at east. I suggest you read Kaiser I. Wilhelm's ideas about east.

First World War caused great sorrow and suffer on Turkish land, which was tried to be invaded by Greek (with heavy English support), French and Italian just after the war. Which, this time, was a disappointment for them. Still no gains from cooperating with Germans.


Da ich auch Deutsch lesen, schreiben und sprechen kann, ich werde sagen; it is not always like that as you read in German books.

May be they should find other reasons why they lost both of the World Wars and should accuse themselves then the other nations who helped them in both of the wars.

Last but not least, Turkish Republic was this time intelligent enough not to join both of the sides and stay neutral in the Second World War, while all other European countries suffer under violence and heavy conditions of the war.

And this time the Germans lost the war again! They weren't supporting the Turks this time(I have already written above, one should find more effective excuses for his failures) and nevertheless the inevitable happened again.

Anyway I do not believe it is the place to discuss history.

Let me read about Paul Mauser's great invention and be fascinated by this magnificent mechanism.

I wish you a happy and pleasant day.
 
If only your comprehension of English were matched by your overblown pride about your country's history...

Turkey was economically and military feeble by any standard in 1914, it was no match for even another limited war in the Balkans, needless to say involvement in a war of the scale it entered. Germany was foolish to encourage Turkey's involvement, as was Turkey for not knowing its limitations.

Neither I am a native English speaker nor I learned it in an English speaking country.

It is funny that you pull it immediately down to a personal niveau (level), as if you lack of self confidence.

Which would be nonsense because here is your ground as being a very long term member, administrator and an expert of these equipment.

Should I justify my English, my pride or my knowledge to you, knowing you have fixed mind?

If you really want to be helpful, please try to explain the "M" stamp. With all your knowledge and contacts...

I am pretty sure that it is not a Turkish stamp, because at that time they were using Arabic alphabet.
Alphabet change was in year 1928.

All these years I haven't seen a Turkish stamp on a gun, which was not particularly produced for Ottoman or Turkey.
They do not stamp pistols or rifles which were donated to Turkish Army (such as Colt 1911 pistols, M1 Garand rifles which were donated after Korean War in relation with Marshall Help, or Luger P08 pistols which were given to Turkish officers by Germans, etc.)
 
nice to see pictures of another 1915 ERFURT Kar98, out of curiosity I looked at mine, sorry I can not help with your question, as mine has no "M" stamped in the sling recess, I can however provide a picture of the front sight and stacking hook of my 1915 ERFURT Kar98 for you
 

Attachments

  • mauser 007.jpg
    mauser 007.jpg
    297.3 KB · Views: 7
The marking has no obvious purpose as a German applied marking.


Neither I am a native English speaker nor I learned it in an English speaking country.

It is funny that you pull it immediately down to a personal niveau (level), as if you lack of self confidence.

Which would be nonsense because here is your ground as being a very long term member, administrator and an expert of these equipment.

Should I justify my English, my pride or my knowledge to you, knowing you have fixed mind?

If you really want to be helpful, please try to explain the "M" stamp. With all your knowledge and contacts...

I am pretty sure that it is not a Turkish stamp, because at that time they were using Arabic alphabet.
Alphabet change was in year 1928.

All these years I haven't seen a Turkish stamp on a gun, which was not particularly produced for Ottoman or Turkey.
They do not stamp pistols or rifles which were donated to Turkish Army (such as Colt 1911 pistols, M1 Garand rifles which were donated after Korean War in relation with Marshall Help, or Luger P08 pistols which were given to Turkish officers by Germans, etc.)
 
While I will not step into to argue semantics on Turkish history or national pride, I will say that Simson was 99% spot on about the m in the sling cutout. There are often random letters stamped into this area of German guns, that most likely refer to various acceptance steps in the stock manufacturing.

And just for your edification Simson happens to be one of the most knowledgable people anywhere when it comes to WW I German rifles and German manufacturing of weapons. His scholarly research and publications and articles on military rifles is second to none.

I would guess you would be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable source on your subject and questions...

But thats just my opinion for what its worth....
 

Military Rifle Journal
Back
Top