Hello,
picked up this one today.
Mismatched Amberg bolt. Bore is very nice.
Untouched attic find.
picked up this one today.
Mismatched Amberg bolt. Bore is very nice.
Untouched attic find.
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Mo 1917/1920
- Thread starter Amberg
- Start date
This is a neat rifle, not sure if you know how much is going on here! Note the CL wrist inspection, a Kassel depot repair stamping. On the keel is another depot marking, appears to be Jt 8 for Ingolstadt. Then, I also noticed on the left butt you have an LK5 marking! As far as I know nobody has discovered what this marking is but it seems to be a depot as well. I wish I knew!!! It shows up on a lot of French made weapons. It's below the 1920 in the photo below. This rifle spent a lot of time in depots around Europe. 
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Bigdibbs88
"Ach du lieber!"
SUPER cool rifle I like the e/6 rear band. Dont think I've ever seen the RB marking on the bayo lug
I like the e/6 rear band. Dont think I've ever seen the RB marking on the bayo lug
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Wow, silly me I didn't even figure that one in! Ma.Jn. is the Muntionsanstalt Ingolstadt!
According to Görtz "German Small Arms Markings" the Jn is Ingolstadt. Perhaps to avoid confusion because there was also Ma.J. for Jüterbog?
SUPER cool rifle
Do you know the meaning of the "RB"?
Thanks
This is Ingolstadt. The German depot system used first and last, maybe the Reichswehr unit marking convention in regards to city names was different than the later depot system?
I have little to add except to agree that this is a very neat and interesting rifle!
Very curious over the barrel, it lacking the fireproof next to the serial (and no suffix) means it is an early re-barrel, either late in the war or early interwar, the stock having the e/6 and no cypher or acceptance on the RS indicates probably an early Simson ordnance spare. The use of E/CL versus E/Ka also indicates early work at Cassel (prior to 1927). The barrel might give an idea as to how old the barrel is but lacking a FP next to the serial is usually a good sign of early work.
Görtz-Bryans does say the unit mark is Ingolstadt Ma, of course the other HZa Ingolstadt marking is much later, the HZa went by a number of different identifiers, some quite unusual, Jt is most common, but HZa/Jst, HZa/Jn, H/Jnt are all known on items or documents. Also different inspectors (or shops) are known, most common Jt3, Jt5 (ammunition usually), Jt18, Jt20.
Regarding the rifle, one can only wonder if this rifle was at Ingolstadt Ma during the 1922 crisis that occurred there.. Ingolstadt was a critical hub for Germany in the interwar period, many IAMCC inspections occurred there, arguments over the fortress and Ma were especially contentious, in late 1922 there was a mob incident where I think both a British and French Officer were injured (only saved by the quick actions of a German liaison Officer- The IAMCC always had German counterparts) during an inspection of the munitions facility, and it became quite a scandal at the time because the German police didn't protect the team. Naturally the German civilians weren't too pleased with the IAMCC jeopardizing their jobs and often reacted violently when inspectors came, - Bavaria was often one of the worse places to try and inspect facilities!
Very curious over the barrel, it lacking the fireproof next to the serial (and no suffix) means it is an early re-barrel, either late in the war or early interwar, the stock having the e/6 and no cypher or acceptance on the RS indicates probably an early Simson ordnance spare. The use of E/CL versus E/Ka also indicates early work at Cassel (prior to 1927). The barrel might give an idea as to how old the barrel is but lacking a FP next to the serial is usually a good sign of early work.
Görtz-Bryans does say the unit mark is Ingolstadt Ma, of course the other HZa Ingolstadt marking is much later, the HZa went by a number of different identifiers, some quite unusual, Jt is most common, but HZa/Jst, HZa/Jn, H/Jnt are all known on items or documents. Also different inspectors (or shops) are known, most common Jt3, Jt5 (ammunition usually), Jt18, Jt20.
Regarding the rifle, one can only wonder if this rifle was at Ingolstadt Ma during the 1922 crisis that occurred there.. Ingolstadt was a critical hub for Germany in the interwar period, many IAMCC inspections occurred there, arguments over the fortress and Ma were especially contentious, in late 1922 there was a mob incident where I think both a British and French Officer were injured (only saved by the quick actions of a German liaison Officer- The IAMCC always had German counterparts) during an inspection of the munitions facility, and it became quite a scandal at the time because the German police didn't protect the team. Naturally the German civilians weren't too pleased with the IAMCC jeopardizing their jobs and often reacted violently when inspectors came, - Bavaria was often one of the worse places to try and inspect facilities!
It still is! ;-)
Bigdibbs88
"Ach du lieber!"
how about a few overall shots?
Did you look at the areas around the rearsight? Sometimes they are marked in the area that the rear sight covers and are sometimes partially covered or in front of the rear sight. I think the marking is the fireproof, see an image of my e/CL 1917/1920 Simson's barrel FP, it has a mid-late 1920s Simson barrel on it with the FP next to the barrel serial. The earliest rifles, Kar.98b and early upgrades-rebarrels do not have barrel codes, but they usually have acceptance and a fireproof, usually in the areas that are typical for Imperial era rifles.
This rifles FP looks either countermarked or canceled, but why and where is the new FP if canceled? It doesn't have a new one on the receiver, which is fine, most re-barrels do not (though some do). I can't tell what is overstruck over the FP on this barrel, almost looks like a pair of wings, like in another FP over the earlier one, but it doesn't seem to fit any patterns I have recorded so far. There are a number of different style FP in the interwar period, HZa Cassel and Simson's are very similar (HZa Cassel reworks often use Simson components too), perhaps due to proximity to one another (they are rather close, couldn't be 100 miles, though the terrain might make it a longer drive..)
I also find all these extra markings interesting, the front sight "CM", the barrel "W", the BL marking, perhaps some of them, like the front sight & barrel marking is some form of early assembly acceptance. The BL marking looks more like a trademark, probably a wartime sub-contractor, but I do not have it identified in my list (many small firms did incidental work that fit their expertise for the war effort, metal working firms did all sorts of oddball things, many of which connecting to a trademark isn't easy. Unless you can connect it to an period invoice that has the trademark, which some do not put their trademark and their line of work is not always clear. Sometimes the items contracted for gives a clue, as does the name of the company, but work they did for the war is not always so easy to connect. Many firms in Zella-Mehlis and Suhl did such work, the Hebel flareguns are a perfect example of these types of markings, many of the firms were Z-M & Suhl firms..)
This rifles FP looks either countermarked or canceled, but why and where is the new FP if canceled? It doesn't have a new one on the receiver, which is fine, most re-barrels do not (though some do). I can't tell what is overstruck over the FP on this barrel, almost looks like a pair of wings, like in another FP over the earlier one, but it doesn't seem to fit any patterns I have recorded so far. There are a number of different style FP in the interwar period, HZa Cassel and Simson's are very similar (HZa Cassel reworks often use Simson components too), perhaps due to proximity to one another (they are rather close, couldn't be 100 miles, though the terrain might make it a longer drive..)
I also find all these extra markings interesting, the front sight "CM", the barrel "W", the BL marking, perhaps some of them, like the front sight & barrel marking is some form of early assembly acceptance. The BL marking looks more like a trademark, probably a wartime sub-contractor, but I do not have it identified in my list (many small firms did incidental work that fit their expertise for the war effort, metal working firms did all sorts of oddball things, many of which connecting to a trademark isn't easy. Unless you can connect it to an period invoice that has the trademark, which some do not put their trademark and their line of work is not always clear. Sometimes the items contracted for gives a clue, as does the name of the company, but work they did for the war is not always so easy to connect. Many firms in Zella-Mehlis and Suhl did such work, the Hebel flareguns are a perfect example of these types of markings, many of the firms were Z-M & Suhl firms..)
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You probably didn't miss it, sometimes it is under the rear sight or partially covered, just sometimes you can find it in front of the rear sight, sometimes under the handguard even. It could be an early interwar barrel or a leftover from the war, maybe a barrel blank not totally finished, who knows, but some very early rifles only have a couple acceptance stamps and no barrel code, my 1924/Simson doesn't have a BC and is hardly marked at all except for a e/6 and a Simson dove style FP. It has a couple other dove like markings, not sure of the purpose but probably acceptance of some sort.
Unfortunately, the only interwar production that can be "dated" with any accuracy is the Simson 98b production and the HZa Zeithain builds, and they form the main guidelines to gage BC and acceptance by period. FP placement next to the serial seems to start in 1925, BC starts around 1926, though there are variables, not the least of which is the meager "reliable" reports and lack of thoroughly documented examples. As your rifle is almost certainly pre-1927 it might not have a BC, probably doesn't, though I would like to make sure because so few examples are thoroughly examined (documented) and I need as large a pool as possible to make trends work reliable.
Unfortunately, the only interwar production that can be "dated" with any accuracy is the Simson 98b production and the HZa Zeithain builds, and they form the main guidelines to gage BC and acceptance by period. FP placement next to the serial seems to start in 1925, BC starts around 1926, though there are variables, not the least of which is the meager "reliable" reports and lack of thoroughly documented examples. As your rifle is almost certainly pre-1927 it might not have a BC, probably doesn't, though I would like to make sure because so few examples are thoroughly examined (documented) and I need as large a pool as possible to make trends work reliable.
