Wehrsport karabiner ZF 41
- Thread starter bjarne
- Start date
mauser99
Senior Member
this rifle looks very similar to another that a member here owns that was found in a s.carolina pawn shop for next to nothing. Then the fellow showed it off and stuck it up on gun broker where it was sold. That's where the member bought it. Not sure if its the same rifle but could be. It was also a very early mauser Oberndorf dsm34 used a test bed for zf41 rifle mounting and scope use. I really liked the way the mount was made and attached. Is this rifle in Demark ? Or did you just run across these photos somewhere ?
bjarne
Senior Member
.......................
On another forum here in Denmark an guy was asking if this rifle was original, so i took the question up inhere!
Belive the rifle is in the us,so you think its legit?
On another forum here in Denmark an guy was asking if this rifle was original, so i took the question up inhere!
Belive the rifle is in the us,so you think its legit?
mauser99
Senior Member
I went and looked. go to the ww2weaponsforum.com and read the whole thread as it happened. Its the same rifle. Knowing how it was bought and how the whole thing played out I'd very shocked if the rifle was a forgery. With a test or experimental rifle its 100% impossible to prove or disprove if its original or not. None of us were at M.O. during the war. So it comes down to gut feeling and the item itself. The mount shows what I'd want to see in a ww2 produced mount. This was not a production rifle. Possibly a one off or a very small run to test the zf40/41 system.
May be legit
As Wayne has mentioned the circumstances from which this gun surfaced give some creedence to it having been captured in this configuration.
Also, three other guns using what appears to be this same adaptor have surfaced during my 35+ years of observing and studying them.
There is also one of these mounts that Bob Simpson acquired uninstalled in Switzerland last year.
I initially thought it likely these were post war creations.
I now believe these were prototype Sniper Trainers BUILT POST PRODUCTION and not at Mauser.
Richard Law presented documents in Backbone II that indicated Weihrauch had developed a mount for the DSM and was in possession of a prototype. Also, another type I am confident is attributable to Weihrauch as it is marked with the WaA359 acceptance stamp. Essentially that mount is set of high rings and bases which attaches via new grooves cut in the barrel between the rear sight and receiver.
There are likely other variations which are legit done in some quantity as prior to the SU27 altered Gustloff KKW there was no standard scope mounted .22 trainer. There were some trainers modified for use at sniper schools and that is fact. What they looked like is not known. What firms or gunsmiths or Ordance Shops did the modification is not known outside those Gustloff KKW's. This is high on the list of things I will be searching for evidence on during the upcoming trip to Meiningen, Suhl and Zella Mehlis. I am hopeful to find some paper trail regarding the Weihrauch effort and may point to other documents if that correspondence has survived.
Such a gun will always remain controversial. The provenance on any sniper is foremost. I assure you there has long been, and still are people in the U.S. who are capable of very high quality fakery that is un-detectable to most people.
From my perspective, if I were acquiring it under the circumstances it supposedly emerged and at such a price, I would feel pretty good about it. On the other hand, at a Show, collectable shop, or from another collector whom I did not know, I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole.
From some dealers I would not touch it if it had Hitler's fingerprints on it and capture papers.
To be clear, I do not think this is Mauser made prototype but it is feasable. I think from what I have seen regarding procurement of .22 scoped trainers for the sniper schools these were altered post production in numerous fashion and small quantity. This particular mount may have been made by one firm and used by several smaller firms or gunsmiths (likely in either Suhl or Zella Mehlis) on contract for the sniper schools.
Not much help, just my take on it.
As Wayne has mentioned the circumstances from which this gun surfaced give some creedence to it having been captured in this configuration.
Also, three other guns using what appears to be this same adaptor have surfaced during my 35+ years of observing and studying them.
There is also one of these mounts that Bob Simpson acquired uninstalled in Switzerland last year.
I initially thought it likely these were post war creations.
I now believe these were prototype Sniper Trainers BUILT POST PRODUCTION and not at Mauser.
Richard Law presented documents in Backbone II that indicated Weihrauch had developed a mount for the DSM and was in possession of a prototype. Also, another type I am confident is attributable to Weihrauch as it is marked with the WaA359 acceptance stamp. Essentially that mount is set of high rings and bases which attaches via new grooves cut in the barrel between the rear sight and receiver.
There are likely other variations which are legit done in some quantity as prior to the SU27 altered Gustloff KKW there was no standard scope mounted .22 trainer. There were some trainers modified for use at sniper schools and that is fact. What they looked like is not known. What firms or gunsmiths or Ordance Shops did the modification is not known outside those Gustloff KKW's. This is high on the list of things I will be searching for evidence on during the upcoming trip to Meiningen, Suhl and Zella Mehlis. I am hopeful to find some paper trail regarding the Weihrauch effort and may point to other documents if that correspondence has survived.
Such a gun will always remain controversial. The provenance on any sniper is foremost. I assure you there has long been, and still are people in the U.S. who are capable of very high quality fakery that is un-detectable to most people.
From my perspective, if I were acquiring it under the circumstances it supposedly emerged and at such a price, I would feel pretty good about it. On the other hand, at a Show, collectable shop, or from another collector whom I did not know, I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole.
From some dealers I would not touch it if it had Hitler's fingerprints on it and capture papers.
To be clear, I do not think this is Mauser made prototype but it is feasable. I think from what I have seen regarding procurement of .22 scoped trainers for the sniper schools these were altered post production in numerous fashion and small quantity. This particular mount may have been made by one firm and used by several smaller firms or gunsmiths (likely in either Suhl or Zella Mehlis) on contract for the sniper schools.
Not much help, just my take on it.
Last edited:
Nicole Wiley
Well-known member
Robert's notes
Per Request from Robert, I am making this post.
"Recently after seeing 1 other of this variation then accidentally obtaining one, both have Su(Spandau) proofs- I believe this is a legitimate ZF41 sniper trainer variation. They were modified after the ZF41 scope circa 1941 was available. JGA, Simson, now Mauser variation. 3 known. It would be interesting to know if this gun has Su proofs or if Mauser modified it?? And who has it?"
This note is attached to a print off of gunbroker.com listing, print off dated 2/20/2011
Also, I have photographed Robert's JGA with the scope mount area, as was when acquired, photo of the mount, and photo of the mount in place on the JGA.
Per Request from Robert, I am making this post.
"Recently after seeing 1 other of this variation then accidentally obtaining one, both have Su(Spandau) proofs- I believe this is a legitimate ZF41 sniper trainer variation. They were modified after the ZF41 scope circa 1941 was available. JGA, Simson, now Mauser variation. 3 known. It would be interesting to know if this gun has Su proofs or if Mauser modified it?? And who has it?"
This note is attached to a print off of gunbroker.com listing, print off dated 2/20/2011
Also, I have photographed Robert's JGA with the scope mount area, as was when acquired, photo of the mount, and photo of the mount in place on the JGA.
Attachments
Nicole Wiley
Well-known member
