Third Party Press

Another Woodwork Normandy

Bigdibbs88

"Ach du lieber!"
Well this should get the paranoia going: Here's another one of my patented backyard fakes with wear not following prescribed patterns, wear around the rim, paint which isnt dead enough, and gouges and chips in paint which are random (imagine that) and around seemingly good paint. Definitey fake.

Joking aside, this one came out of an attic in Georgia recently where it had been abandoned. I have been very lucky as its my second in 8 months. Very vibrant textured camo again athough the liner is much more frail in this one and the chinstrap has crumbled away. It is named 3x (once in top of shell, initials on liner, initials in back of skirt) and has very thick overspray. More red than I usually see. If you look closely in the last picture you can see a fingerprint in the paint (no it isnt mine :moon:)
 

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Well this should get the paranoia going: Here's another one of my patented backyard fakes with wear not following prescribed patterns, wear around the rim, paint which isnt dead enough, and gouges and chips in paint which are random (imagine that) and around seemingly good paint. Definitey fake.

Joking aside, this one came out of an attic in Georgia recently where it had been abandoned. I have been very lucky as its my second in 8 months. Very vibrant textured camo again although the liner is much more frail in this one and the chinstrap has crumbled away. It is named 3x (once in top of shell, initials on liner, initials in back of skirt) and has very thick overspray. More red than I usually see. If you look closely in the last picture you can see a fingerprint in the paint (no it isn't mine :moon:)

Well this should get the paranoia going:... That 'paranoia' you speak of is there for a reason, because German helmet collecting has become besieged with a pandemic of fake camo helmets (among other types). There are so many fake camos in fact, that the chances of fake camos sitting in our own camo helmet collections are quite high. There are probably far more fake camo German helmets in the collecting world today than were ever brought home by GIs.

Joking aside, this one came out of an attic in Georgia recently where it had been abandoned.... Well, maybe it did. But such stories do not guarantee authenticity. I'm thinking of a particular fake M38 camo that was 'found' in a barn in Europe and praised by the throngs on the WAF forum some years back. The staging of a fake camo to be later 'found' is not difficult to do.

Very vibrant textured camo... Vibrant colors on camos concern me, as 70 year old paint usually dulls down to some degree due to handling, age and the elements.

although the liner is much more frail in this one and the chinstrap has crumbled away.... Certainly not the 'kiss-of-death' but one should question why the camo paint is in such good condition while the other components are in such poor condition.

If you look closely in the last picture you can see a fingerprint in the paint (no it isn't mine... :moon:) Collectors should be aware that camo fakers are paying attention to the finer details and are including such 'nice touches' as applying a bit of camo paint to the liner or chinstrap as some originals have. The fingerprint is one of those 'nice touches'.

Here's another one of my patented backyard fakes with wear not following prescribed patterns, wear around the rim, paint which isnt dead enough, and gouges and chips in paint which are random (imagine that) and around seemingly good paint. Definitely fake.... Joke if you want to, but it's your money that's at stake. Comparing the wear characteristics of known originals with those of suspect helmets can be a good indicator of authenticity, IMO. I do see quite a bit of good conditioned paint along with repetitive, heavy rub marks down to steel (disparity of wear).

I have been very lucky as its my second in 8 months.... If you are on a camo buying spree you are playing a very dangerous game, my friend. Fakes and forgeries are intended to deceive, and range from crude to excellent. The so-called 'one-looker' helmets need to be given a second, more detailed look. In short, I do not see anything on this helmet that cannot be replicated by a competent restorer.

So, is this helmet real or fake? I can't say for certain. I deal in probabilities and possibilities. I examine all of the individual fine details and come to an overall conclusion.

Positives: It looks great! But then again, forged currencies, forged masterpieces, and forged camo helmets all 'look great' because they are intended to deceive.

Negatives: A number of 'red flags' jump out; disparity of paint wear (excellent conditioned paint along side very heavy wear - re: rub marks and heavy rim wear), disparity of component wear (excellent camo overall but with heavily worn/damaged components), vibrant paint colors (reflecting newness of paint), the Georgia attic story makes me suspicious.

Collectors should take the time to carefully weigh the pros and cons of any subject camo helmet and not be mesmerized by the 'one-looker' emotions that cause them to overlook the red flags.
 
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Well this should get the paranoia going:... That 'paranoia' you speak of is there for a reason, because German helmet collecting has become besieged with a pandemic of fake camo helmets (among other types). There are so many fake camos in fact, that the chances of fake camos sitting in our own camo helmet collections are quite high. There are probably far more fake camo German helmets in the collecting world today than were ever brought home by GIs.
I agree, camos are dangerous, but i poke fun at your paranoia because its a bit extreme. I have yet to see you authenticate a single helmet, other than the ones you own of course. Dont get me wrong, details are important, but focus on the wave miss the ocean.

Joking aside, this one came out of an attic in Georgia recently where it had been abandoned.... Well, maybe it did. But such stories do not guarantee authenticity. I'm thinking of a particular fake M38 camo that was 'found' in a barn in Europe and praised by the throngs on the WAF forum some years back. The staging of a fake camo to be later 'found' is not difficult to do.
I search daily for these things. I paid less for this helmet and my other normandy than the base helmets themselves are worth. Also I'd appreciate it if you didnt insinuate that I lie.


Very vibrant textured camo... Vibrant colors on camos concern me, as 70 year old paint usually dulls down to some degree due to handling, age and the elements.

although the liner is much more frail in this one and the chinstrap has crumbled away.... Certainly not the 'kiss-of-death' but one should question why the camo paint is in such good condition while the other components are in such poor condition.
Quite simple, it sat in a dark dry environment, preserving the paint, yet drying out the liner.

If you look closely in the last picture you can see a fingerprint in the paint (no it isn't mine... :moon:) Collectors should be aware that camo fakers are paying attention to the finer details and are including such 'nice touches' as applying a bit of camo paint to the liner or chinstrap as some originals have. The fingerprint is one of those 'nice touches'.
yes im sure someone went to the trouble of putting their fingerprint in the paint on a fake helmet they spent months creating to sell for less than a base M40 is worth.

Here's another one of my patented backyard fakes with wear not following prescribed patterns, wear around the rim, paint which isnt dead enough, and gouges and chips in paint which are random (imagine that) and around seemingly good paint. Definitely fake.... Joke if you want to, but it's your money that's at stake. Comparing the wear characteristics of known originals with those of suspect helmets can be a good indicator of authenticity, IMO. I do see quite a bit of good conditioned paint along with repetitive, heavy rub marks down to steel (disparity of wear).

Please define "known original". Is it something you yourself have deemed original? By your own definition, basically any story of how a helmet was found could be made up. So unless you picked up a helmet yourself in 1945 or before there are no known originals.

I have been very lucky as its my second in 8 months.... If you are on a camo buying spree you are playing a very dangerous game, my friend. Fakes and forgeries are intended to deceive, and range from crude to excellent. The so-called 'one-looker' helmets need to be given a second, more detailed look. In short, I do not see anything on this helmet that cannot be replicated by a competent restorer.
Camo buying spree? A bit presumptuous. I own 3 camos, 2 are normandies that, again, i paid for each of them less than the base helmet would be worth. Again, I dont buy from dealers or collectors. Every helmet I own I have sourced myself. I search daily, and it has taken 8 months since my last helmet to find this.

So, is this helmet real or fake? I can't say for certain. I deal in probabilities and possibilities. I examine all of the individual fine details and come to an overall conclusion.

With all due respect, I was not seeking your authentication. I already knew the answer, every camo is fake.

Positives: It looks great! But then again, forged currencies, forged masterpieces, and forged camo helmets all 'look great' because they are intended to deceive.

Negatives: A number of 'red flags' jump out; disparity of paint wear (excellent conditioned paint along side very heavy wear), disparity of component wear (excellent camo overall but with heavily worn components), vibrant paint colors (reflecting newness of paint), the Georgia attic story makes me suspicious.

if you think the components are heavily worn, you should look again. the liner looks only lightly worn, but has sat ignored for a long time.

Collectors should take the time to carefully weigh the pros and cons of any subject camo helmet and not be mesmerized by the 'one-looker' emotions that cause them to overlook the red flags.

.......................
 
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To be honest in all involved it would be near impossible for anyone to properly acess that camo from those photos. To much direct sun light and glare can do weird things to paint. Non direct full sun is the best way to photo a helmet to get the correct "true" colors of the paint..

The helmet and leather portray the same traits of other lids I've owned that have come from hot dry climates or long term attic storage. Leather dries to the point it just crumbles and the case of that one the tanning is peeling from the base. Once to this point it will continue to deteriorate and there isn't much you can do about it. Just avoid handling as much as possible..

I have seen this storage condition actually lighten paint a few shades not darken it.

We have had all these discussions before about paint and camo's and spray patterns.. So for all that remember please defer to that other thread. I don't want to go through that again...:facepalm:


Nice lid Rob I like it..
 
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Mauser, from my monitor it looks like the photos were done outdoors in in-direct sunlight with very little glare, the way it should be done.

Concerning camo helmets in general, superior coloring, texturing, application, and aging techniques have all been mastered. Take movie studios, for instance. They have expert artists that can take wood and paint it up to look just like steel, or marble, or whatever they want it to look like. A superior faked camo will have a correct appearing coloring, texture and application, which is then aged to appear 70 years old.

The trick to making that believable is the physical wear; the dings, scratches, rub marks, dents, and so on. Many fakes have failed to convince in this regard. How to take a pristine camo and put several years worth of believable combat wear on it during an hour in the garage? Of course the fakers have resorted to many techniques such as chemical aging, repetitive scratching, rubbing the helmet against a concrete wall to wear to bare steel, popping paint off with a rubber mallet, rust washes, and so on.

But they invariably leave large areas of the camo untouched with no wear whatsoever, very much un-like real camos that are basically completely covered in wear.

Many fakes have wear that does not accurately reflect the way original helmets wear while in combat/front line duty.
 
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Camo helmets and any nazi badge/medal worth more than $50: I just stay away. I have no idea what the hell im doing, and I would just lose money. That so many experienced people can have a vigorous debate over this helmet tells me stay in the shallow end until I know better.
 
Mauser, from my monitor it looks like the photos were done outdoors in in-direct sunlight with very little glare, the way it should be done.

Concerning camo helmets in general, superior coloring, texturing, application, and aging techniques have all been mastered. Take movie studios, for instance. They have expert artists that can take wood and paint it up to look just like steel, or marble, or whatever they want it to look like. A superior faked camo will have a correct appearing coloring, texture and application, which is then aged to appear 70 years old.

The trick to making that believable is the physical wear; the dings, scratches, rub marks, dents, and so on. Many fakes have failed to convince in this regard. How to take a pristine camo and put several years worth of believable combat wear on it during an hour in the garage? Of course the fakers have resorted to many techniques such as chemical aging, repetitive scratching, rubbing the helmet against a concrete wall to wear to bare steel, popping paint off with a rubber mallet, rust washes, and so on.

But they invariably leave large areas of the camo untouched with no wear whatsoever, very much un-like real camos that are basically completely covered in wear.

Many fakes have wear that does not accurately reflect the way original helmets wear while in combat/front line duty.

I have never seen a helmet in a movie that would fool most anyone with an ounce on knowledge. Sorry.

I have the utmost respect for what you are doing. As I said before there are too many variables to how a helmet was used and treated during the war then how it was used,played with, stored, ect. after that you cant put one helmet in a neat little box and say "there" ! That's what they all should look like..
If you do you are surely going to miss out on some great examples. Just saying. If you pass on a lid because the spray pattern looks too tight only to find a period photo of guys wearing the same exact camo pattern that's a big whoops ! I think we crossed that bridge on the last one posted.
 
But they invariably leave large areas of the camo untouched with no wear whatsoever, very much un-like real camos that are basically completely covered in wear.

Many fakes have wear that does not accurately reflect the way original helmets wear while in combat/front line duty.


While this is a good observation it is irrelevant when dealing with items with completely unknown history. Let's say, theoretically, that a helmet is camo'd and sees very little use on a shelf above a soldatens desk until the war ends. Then you have a perfectly mint camo helmet with no consistent "combat wear". Enter the GI who throws it in his duffel bag or ships it home without taking any care of what it's rubbing against. That long trip home could create some unusual wear patterns and chips in the paint otherwise thought to be fabricated by a humper in his garage with a rubber mallet.

Is it likely that a camo would be painted and then shelved without seeing extensive field use and combat? No. Is it possible? Absolutely.

So in short, one should not rely solely on wear patterns, as anything and everything is possible with helmets that saw combat, were traded and won in poker games, traveled overseas, and bounced around for the last 70 years.

I have nothing but respect for seasoned collectors. This is of course just my opinion.
 
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the photos were taken on an overcast day, which is how i usually do it. Its hard to photograph, but although much of the paint is still present on the top of the helmet, the texturing seen on the side is worn quite a bit on the top.

Other variables M45 has left out: what was the finish of the shell before camo'd? Was it a smooth early finish or a rough wartime finish? Were there already multiple paint coats beneath it? This will affect how easily the paint is able to grip the underlying surface and whether it will chip off or scrape off and to what degree. Also, what was the paint mixed with? Water? Diesel? I have books stating that any number of liquid substances found were mixed with the paint to make it sprayable. Clearly this would also affect durability, level of brittleness etc. Application techniques varied by theater and even by unit- because of this, and even beyond the point that you have no idea of the helmets service life or storage after the war, it is impossible use a cookie cutter approach to what wear should be seen on a helmet.
 
To me this thread is why camo helmets are not particularly valuable to the masses. You take a chance on every one you buy. Even the out of the woodwork helmets aren't safe, much like the old man dragging a 98k around a huge show doesn't make it real. To each his own, but there is no way to tell 100% if a camo is real.
 
I have never seen a helmet in a movie that would fool most anyone with an ounce on knowledge. Sorry.

I have the utmost respect for what you are doing. As I said before there are too many variables to how a helmet was used and treated during the war then how it was used,played with, stored, ect. after that you cant put one helmet in a neat little box and say "there" ! That's what they all should look like..
If you do you are surely going to miss out on some great examples. Just saying. If you pass on a lid because the spray pattern looks too tight only to find a period photo of guys wearing the same exact camo pattern that's a big whoops ! I think we crossed that bridge on the last one posted.

Mauser, you are certainly right about those movie prop helmets. I was just watching 'The Great Escape' and the scene where the prisoners first arrive at camp shows some horrendous helmets! The Luft decals are on the wrong side of the helmets! I mentioned movie studios to show how their artists can paint things (other than German helmets) to appear to be something else. I'm sure with a little professional coaching they could paint up some fantastic camos.

There are certainly many variables to camos as you say, which is why they are relatively easy to reproduce to fool collectors; there is no one set of rules they followed (field as opposed to factory production).

I suppose comparing subject helmets to known originals (those most of us would agree are authentic) is a first step toward determining authenticity.

However, if there is no starting point for authentication, then conceivably any helmet presenting itself as a period produced camo could be accepted as authentic, which is what fakers desperately want, a money-making scheme.
 
Rob this one has similar paint techniques, the patern may be different than yours, I think both are legit.

r9NXS4E.jpg




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVoNcB62m7Y&feature=youtu.be
 
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While this is a good observation it is irrelevant when dealing with items with completely unknown history. Let's say, theoretically, that a helmet is camo'd and sees very little use on a shelf above a soldatens desk until the war ends. Then you have a perfectly mint camo helmet with no consistent "combat wear". Enter the GI who throws it in his duffel bag or ships it home without taking any care of what it's rubbing against. That long trip home could create some unusual wear patterns and chips in the paint otherwise thought to be fabricated by a humper in his garage with a rubber mallet.

Is it likely that a camo would be painted and then shelved without seeing extensive field use and combat? No. Is it possible? Absolutely.

So in short, one should not rely solely on wear patterns, as anything and everything is possible with helmets that saw combat, were traded and won in poker games, traveled overseas, and bounced around for the last 70 years.

I have nothing but respect for seasoned collectors. This is of course just my opinion.

Is it possible for a mint camo helmet to have survived, one that was setting on the drying table when the allies burst in and captured the German camp? The helmet would have essentially no wear whatsoever, besides maybe some handling wear or rub marks from the canvas duffel bag during the long boat home. Or a helmet camoed and set on a shelf for the war? Sure its possible, but considering probabilities, camos were (nearly always) front line helmets, such helmets seeing some of the heaviest action. Even period photos show camos being worn with heavy wear.

On the same note, is it possible that a helmet was buffed to bare steel before applying the period camo? Sure its possible, but camos with no factory paint are viewed as highly suspect since many fake camos use postwar reissued German helmets that had their factory paint removed.

Going on probabilities, a mint camo is probably fake, as well as camos with no factory paint remaining. For myself, I refer to it as a 99% probability (essential certainty). I leave the 1% for those helmets that have, as you said, a completely unknown history that could have survived in such a condition. I stay away from absolute certainty because we cannot know everything.

As you say, one should not rely soley on wear patters, or rely soley on anything (such as the good feelings a camo gives us that tells us it must be original). But wear patters are the one thing the fakers have great difficulty in mastering. As mentioned before, correct paint color, texture, application and aging have all been mastered. The combat wear is the sticker.
 
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Here are a few quotes from a book called "Panzer Colors: Camouflage of the German Panzer Forces 1939-45". Although it is about application of camo to vehicles, it directly relates to camouflaging of field equipment (which were often camo'd using the spray guns on armored vehicles) as well and directly relate to my above statements. It is basically 100 pages detailing an incredible amount of randomness and variation in paint type, mixing, application, etc. which clearly affects how paint wears during use and age. If this shows the complete and utter randomness of application and mix quality, what does it say about adding field-use and post-war storage (which are always unknowns) into the equation?! The points below show that any attempt at cookie-cutter type approaches for wear pattern, color, etc is ludicrous:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 7:
“The normal (ideal) method of applying virtually all paint was by using a standard spray gun. Most tanks and heavy vehicles even had engine-driven compressors to provide the needed air pressure for painting. in most situations, individual vehicle crews were responsible for painting their equipment. While in some newly formed units, the commanding officer would order a ‘standard’ pattern of colors (if more than one shade was used), this was not common, and in most German formations, there were vast differences in the patterns of vehicles, even within a single company or platoon.
Even using the standard spray gun (which was by far the most common method of application), individuals displayed remarkable variations in patterns, coverage, and color density. In the 1943-45 three-color system, the two additional colors, olive green and red brown, were infinitely variable in color, depending on the dilution and type of solvent.
In a number of situations, use of the spray gun was not practical- this was very common in winter when snow camouflage had to be applied, often with extreme haste. Almost every possible way to apply paint was used- sponges, brooms, mops, rags, hands, even the extreme of throwing buckets of paint or whitewash (for winter) onto the vehicle and quickly smearing it around with whatever could be used.
Thus, it is very difficult to make hard general rules or statements about German colors, patterns, or applications.


Page 52 (referring to the 3 color camouflage system of 1943-45):
“These two colors….were issued in the form of concentrated paste, much like shoe polish……This new system was designed specifically to allow local commanders the widest possible latitude in coloring their equipment so as to blend with local conditions of terrain, foliage, or even buildings and unusual soil conditions. The past colors could be thinned with gasoline or water, and could be sprayed, brushed, or mopped onto the vehicles. “

Page 61, (referring to the last year of the war):
“Perhaps the greatest failing, though, was in the camouflage pastes themselves. They had been formulated so that either gasoline or water could be used to thin them for application. …unfortunately, the pastes proved to be unstable when mixed with water, and even the lightest rain, mist, or heavy dew caused the new colors to run together or wash off the vehicles completely. Gasoline had to be used to achieve a durable finish, and yet fuel shortages were the most critical problem facing German units during the last years of the war. Thus, as sufficient fuel was not available to use the pastes properly many units had to use them with water, waste oil, contaminated fuel, or mixed with other paints. All of these expedient practices caused a tremendous variation in the appearance and durability of the paint schemes: sometimes a camouflage scheme might last only a few days, due to bad weather and improper application. Individual units handled the problem of camouflage paints and pastes differently.“

Page 61:
“it should be noted here that because of the methods of application, and the concentrated nature of the paste paints, the colors were so varied that standard references were impossible…… There was little standardization, but occasionally complete units would be properly painted and marked as they were equipped or rebuilt after extensive loss…..Photographs do show that spray equipment was used more frequently than any other method, especially in Western Europe and Italy. Even in Russia, a large number of vehicles were spray painted initially, but subsequent repairs and changes were not always done ‘by the book.”

Page 67:
“as in 1943, the paint system was marked by a lack of a system, and many variaitions in colors, patterns, and application were found.”
 
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Is it just me or are those colors fairly bright and new looking?

I personally don't like that helmet either. Colors are off. See I said it.. I don't like that camo. I personally wont buy a camo that doesn't fall into the parameters I set. Color has to be one of them. I have very strict rules for myself and others that send me photos of potential purchases. At times we are forced due to circumstances out of our control to make judgments on helmets and paint from non-perfect conditions. That's when your gut has to take over and years of scrutinizing helmets "in hand" at shows comes into play. It takes years to master any from of collecting and the newest and latest fake is out there to fool the best. I have seen it In 3R badges and there are guys who have rose above it and can call out the best fakes. Helmets and Luger's are no different.

All 3R collectables have taken a hit due to the economy and the lack of new blood coming into the hobby.. Hold onto this stuff for too long and expect to get pennies on the dollar for it..
 
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I personally don't like that helmet either. Colors are off.


Good point, Mauser. Flipping through the helmets on the 'Questionable Camos' thread, one finds some outrageous colors on camos. Some of them would fit better in a grammar school art class than a WWII German military theme.

The basic 3-color camo (aka Normandy Camo) has red-brown as one of the colors. This one seems to be the most difficult to replicate accurately, as opposed to the tan or green which is easier. Mixing variations considered, the previous helmet appears to be orange instead of red-brown. The first helmet appears burgundy.

So not only are wear patterns a factor to be considered, paint colors/shades and brightness/deadness are issues as well.
 

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