armenjs
Senior Member
Just the thought of Germans were producing weapons at last days / hours before surrender, is by it self amazing task. Let alone the sn were stamped or not.
The super late ac45's
- Thread starter Tiger 2 Tank
- Start date
Just the thought of Germans were producing weapons at last days / hours before surrender, is by it self amazing task. Let alone the sn were stamped or not.
jack944
Senior Member
correct
Yes..Darrin Weaver mentions this I believe. I know what the story is on my rifle and it supports captured at factory.
Yes..Darrin Weaver mentions this I believe. I know what the story is on my rifle and it supports captured at factory.
Are we talking just the bolt carrier blank...or the entire carrier/bolt assembly? Most have the entire bolt assembly unnumbered.
I believe Jacks has a complete unnumbered bolt and carrier?
I believe Jacks has a complete unnumbered bolt and carrier?
I think you guys would be interested in seeing this info. This is the report on what was officially taken from Walther. I originally saw this statistic in an article on the p38forum.com by Ron Clarin, but the source info is on http://www.11tharmoreddivision.com/history/11th_book/chapter_3.htm. Want to make sure everyone gets credit. Below is copied and pasted, but broken up by me.
Anyway, Pistols, P38—1,600
7.65mm— 4,600
Signal—598
22 cal.—325
Sniper rifles and scopes complete—2,210
scopes incomplete—4,42
rifles partly assembled—1,140
113 lathes
97 milling machines
41 drill presses
nine punch presses
two hydraulic presses
40 grinders.
At least 500 new type enemy carbines
2,500 Burp guns with sufficient parts for an additional 5,000 were uncovered at Suhl.
Over a million rounds of small arms ammunition were included.
This material was found in several large plants and over 50 small, decentralized plants. In addition to weapons, several of these factories produced parts of robot aircraft.
Ron's uncle was in the 90th Divison, and he mentioned that they took about 25 truckloads worth of stuff. Who knows what the units that occupied the plant after that took. For those that want to learn more about the Walther factory capture, here is a link to his article on the p38forum. You need to be a member to see it. http://p38forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19320
Anyway, Pistols, P38—1,600
7.65mm— 4,600
Signal—598
22 cal.—325
Sniper rifles and scopes complete—2,210
scopes incomplete—4,42
rifles partly assembled—1,140
113 lathes
97 milling machines
41 drill presses
nine punch presses
two hydraulic presses
40 grinders.
At least 500 new type enemy carbines
2,500 Burp guns with sufficient parts for an additional 5,000 were uncovered at Suhl.
Over a million rounds of small arms ammunition were included.
This material was found in several large plants and over 50 small, decentralized plants. In addition to weapons, several of these factories produced parts of robot aircraft.
Ron's uncle was in the 90th Divison, and he mentioned that they took about 25 truckloads worth of stuff. Who knows what the units that occupied the plant after that took. For those that want to learn more about the Walther factory capture, here is a link to his article on the p38forum. You need to be a member to see it. http://p38forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19320
robber3
Member
AC 45 D blocks
I have studied primarily Late war Walther ac45 Rifles, and I have never seen a final firing proof on any ac45 d block Rifle receiver, and none on a lot of C block Rifles. This would tell me that no d block ever left the plant, and possibly most c blocks also, or Walther stopped test firing them, and or marking the receiver with a final firing proof. Should anyone have a d block with the final firing proof on the receiver please let me know. I have also concluded with my serial number study on ac45 Rifles that most Rifles that seem to be missing final stock proofs, unnumbered bolt groups, unnumbered carriers etc. seem to start for the most part starting with the 3000 block Rifles. I have 2 unmolested d block Rifles that were captured at the plant , and are all matching, have all stock proofs, all other proofs, but lacking final firing proofs.One is in the 1900 serial block, and the other 2200.Anyone that would like to chime in with any info. or ideas please do.
I have studied primarily Late war Walther ac45 Rifles, and I have never seen a final firing proof on any ac45 d block Rifle receiver, and none on a lot of C block Rifles. This would tell me that no d block ever left the plant, and possibly most c blocks also, or Walther stopped test firing them, and or marking the receiver with a final firing proof. Should anyone have a d block with the final firing proof on the receiver please let me know. I have also concluded with my serial number study on ac45 Rifles that most Rifles that seem to be missing final stock proofs, unnumbered bolt groups, unnumbered carriers etc. seem to start for the most part starting with the 3000 block Rifles. I have 2 unmolested d block Rifles that were captured at the plant , and are all matching, have all stock proofs, all other proofs, but lacking final firing proofs.One is in the 1900 serial block, and the other 2200.Anyone that would like to chime in with any info. or ideas please do.
Tiger 2 Tank
Senior Member
But, were any of the ac45 mismatch rifles captured mismatched or were all ac45's that are mismatched a result of post war activity?
robber3
Member
I personally think that any ac45 Rifles earlier than the d block that's mismatched did not come from the factory that way. I do believe d block Rifles in the late 2000 numbers , and above where the final stock proofs, and unnumbered bolt groups, or carriers was done at the factory, because I don't believe they ever left, and by that time it was very close to the end. The no letter block, a, and b blocks would of left the factory matching, and they would have the final firing proof on the receiver. I'm not sure about the c block as to how many never left the plant. I have a hard time justifying that no letter, a or b blocks would be unfinished at the factory and GIs finished putting them together unmatched. I do believe anything is possible with the d block as this was at the very end ,and things had to be desperate. I do note that others might disagree with me, and that's ok, it's always good to hear other views. I guess the main question is did Walther send ac 45 Rifles from the factory mismatched, I do not believe they did other than accounting for a small percentage of human error other than d block unnumbered parts.
Good theory.
My ac45 7715c had no final on receiver but did have it on stock
2423d has so stock final and receiver final.
My ac45 7715c had no final on receiver but did have it on stock
2423d has so stock final and receiver final.
jack944
Senior Member
Agree..My rifle I think is,a poster child for this finding.Certainly completed by Walter,but never left the plant.
Tiger 2 Tank
Senior Member
You don't think then that some late ac45's could have been on the assembly line that were not assembled completely yet and G.I.s with factory workers assembling them where they came out mismatched? ("cigarette guns") P.38's and PP's were, why not K.43's and why would they be different? This is my hang up. Not trying to justify any mismatched K.43 out there, but wanting to know what happened at the end.
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I think he is saying late d block it could be explained. Same as the c block of ac45 pistols. This phenomenon seems mostly isolated to the c block for p38, why couldn't it be just as isolated for k43?
robber3
Member
Tiger 2 Tank
Senior Member
Titan
Senior Member
I think we missed a few topics in this thread!! This is all from my experience.
Late "d" block rifles are typically missing the "firing proof" on the receiver, but typically have the "firing proof" on the barrel, and the bolt.
Late "d" block rifles that have un-numbered bolts, always have un-numbered bolt carriers(from my experience).
Serial numbered bolts and carriers appear sporadically throughout "d" block production, no pattern.
Judging by the depth and width of the serial number stamps, and applied finish; the receiver, bolt carrier and bolt were stamped with a serial number "before" they were hardened and tempered, and finally blued or phosphated.
That little "dot" on the bottom of the bolt carrier foot, and on the face of the bolt is from the hardness test.
The bluing and phosphate finish was applied after the serial numbers and E/359 were stamped, which means that parts with a blued or phosphate finish are actually 100% finished parts, that have already been fitted to a rifle.
This all leads up to my final conclusion: AC45 "d" block rifles with "un-numbered" bolt assemblies were actually finished rifles, and ready to be issued.
Thanks, TITAN
Late "d" block rifles are typically missing the "firing proof" on the receiver, but typically have the "firing proof" on the barrel, and the bolt.
Late "d" block rifles that have un-numbered bolts, always have un-numbered bolt carriers(from my experience).
Serial numbered bolts and carriers appear sporadically throughout "d" block production, no pattern.
Judging by the depth and width of the serial number stamps, and applied finish; the receiver, bolt carrier and bolt were stamped with a serial number "before" they were hardened and tempered, and finally blued or phosphated.
That little "dot" on the bottom of the bolt carrier foot, and on the face of the bolt is from the hardness test.
The bluing and phosphate finish was applied after the serial numbers and E/359 were stamped, which means that parts with a blued or phosphate finish are actually 100% finished parts, that have already been fitted to a rifle.
This all leads up to my final conclusion: AC45 "d" block rifles with "un-numbered" bolt assemblies were actually finished rifles, and ready to be issued.
Thanks, TITAN
jack944
Senior Member
Great analysis...my matched sniper supports this theory...the rifle had to be completed before it was finally configured as a sniper.
One issue I have with your theory - the Germans did not do that on 98k's and stamped numbers were applied just fine on hardened parts. The entire bolt on the 98k is not hardened the same, i.e. the front of the bolt that engages the receiver is probably harder, and numbers aren't stamped there. The 98k bolts (and other parts) were numbered AFTER hardening with no issue.
On the K43, the carrier is hardened more at the front, where the carrier engages the bolt. Locking lugs are hardened all the way through, and look how those parts were numbered - engraving. So I'm not really on board with your "numbers stamped before hardening" theory, it isn't the right way to manufacture parts. You would never harden a bunch of bolt parts that were numbered, the process of matching up parts to specific rifle serial numbers would take an army of sorters.
So lets take Jacks ac45 d block sniper - in my mind, a gun like that was probably test fired and fully numbered before going to the sniper shop, as it had to pass an accuracy test. Most likely the carrier broke, or another bolt component broke during the final firing, and that rifle could easily have been in one of the repair shops when the plant was captured. You have to imagine there were rifles in every state of manufacture. To me, the unnumbered carrier/bolt assemblies are just rifles in different stages of manufacture.
Like ac45 P.38 pistols by Walther - the very last b and c block pistols have progressive variations - mid b block pistols were fully numbered and accepted on right side with 2 inspections and firing proof. Late b blocks are fully numbered and have 1 inspection and 1 firing proof. The last variation has just 1 inspection, no firing proof, and locking blocks are unnnumbered (a very few have numbered blocks without the firing proof, VERY FEW - could be humped up or could be numbered after fitting but before firing proofs). So the last part numbered during assembly was the locking blocks on the P.38.
So, the answer may never be known but the correlation with firing proofs and lack of bolt assy numbering is similar to the ac45 pistols.
On the K43, the carrier is hardened more at the front, where the carrier engages the bolt. Locking lugs are hardened all the way through, and look how those parts were numbered - engraving. So I'm not really on board with your "numbers stamped before hardening" theory, it isn't the right way to manufacture parts. You would never harden a bunch of bolt parts that were numbered, the process of matching up parts to specific rifle serial numbers would take an army of sorters.
So lets take Jacks ac45 d block sniper - in my mind, a gun like that was probably test fired and fully numbered before going to the sniper shop, as it had to pass an accuracy test. Most likely the carrier broke, or another bolt component broke during the final firing, and that rifle could easily have been in one of the repair shops when the plant was captured. You have to imagine there were rifles in every state of manufacture. To me, the unnumbered carrier/bolt assemblies are just rifles in different stages of manufacture.
Like ac45 P.38 pistols by Walther - the very last b and c block pistols have progressive variations - mid b block pistols were fully numbered and accepted on right side with 2 inspections and firing proof. Late b blocks are fully numbered and have 1 inspection and 1 firing proof. The last variation has just 1 inspection, no firing proof, and locking blocks are unnnumbered (a very few have numbered blocks without the firing proof, VERY FEW - could be humped up or could be numbered after fitting but before firing proofs). So the last part numbered during assembly was the locking blocks on the P.38.
So, the answer may never be known but the correlation with firing proofs and lack of bolt assy numbering is similar to the ac45 pistols.
Mrfarb has a great point. My original point was that I think it's possible that the bolt carrier not being numbered is a numbering simplification. Perhaps something that was dropped to speed up production.
sturmgrenadier
Senior Member
Interesting theories all around, we may never know the full story. Do we have a d block registry to plot the variations?
sturmgrenadier
Senior Member
2852 d
S/N'd bolt carrier, bolt, (stamped) full 2852
Flaps, firing pin carrier (E pen) factory error on middle digit of all three parts (832)
S/N'd bolt carrier, bolt, (stamped) full 2852
Flaps, firing pin carrier (E pen) factory error on middle digit of all three parts (832)
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Typically, it is the entire bolt group that is not numbered on these examples...not just the carrier.
If the bolt carrier was the only unnumbered part (which is not normally the case) the theories of broken carriers and production shortcuts would make sense.
We are really discussing completely unnumbered bolt groups in the c and d blocks on ac45 rifles I believe.
Mrfarb also points out valid facts. Critical specs like hardening etc. would be completed before any numbering would be done. They would have to have a known acceptable part before it would be used in a rifle...and numbered.
If the bolt carrier was the only unnumbered part (which is not normally the case) the theories of broken carriers and production shortcuts would make sense.
We are really discussing completely unnumbered bolt groups in the c and d blocks on ac45 rifles I believe.
Mrfarb also points out valid facts. Critical specs like hardening etc. would be completed before any numbering would be done. They would have to have a known acceptable part before it would be used in a rifle...and numbered.
