joryfreeburg
Senior Member
Great thread if you’re interested in these interesting rifles…. Chuck’s HK M38 Cavalry now rides with me
Last edited:
The 7.9mm Carcano
- Thread starter RyanE
- Start date
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Here are excerpts of Oberkommando des Heeres / Heereswaffenamt Dienststelle Italien reports from November 1944:
November 15, 1944
"A large part of the WuG 2 program is made up of the conversion of the weapons 6.5 and 8 mm Italian to the German 7.92 ammunition. The carbine and the rifle 6.5 and the le.M.G. Breda 6,5 come into question here - both weapons that are still available in the companies in large numbers, both from new production and from refurbishment. Furthermore, in addition to the already ongoing change of the 8 mm M.G.'s 138 (Italian) to German ammunition for tanks, the change of the 8 mm M.G. Mod. 37 (Italian) for infantry. Trial weapons for all of the above-mentioned calibers are in progress and will be presented and tested in the next few days. If drilling out the already finished barrels (Italian cal. 6.5 mm) for German ammunition proves not to be feasible, precautions have been taken to ensure that new production continues with German interior fittings from existing barrel blanks. The first trial rifles were satisfactory and will now be used for a torture test.
From what has been listed it is clear that particularly important and urgent decisions have to be made in the infantry weapons sector, in which, in my opinion, the Amtsgruppe Prüfwesen must definitely be involved. It would therefore be advisable for a specialist in infantry weapons of the type described to be temporarily deployed for a period of 4-6 weeks as soon as possible.
It should therefore be possible to cover the large demand for rifles and machine guns on the Southern Front (German ammunition!) relatively quickly. Waiting for long trials etc. is not justifiable. It has to be improvised in the interest of rapid supplies to the Southern Front."
November 30, 1944
"The current infantry program is particularly noteworthy. The attempts to convert Italian small arms to German ammunition mentioned in the previous report have been successful, so that the following urgent programs will be implemented in the weapons sector:
1.) Converting the 6.5 mm rifles respectively carbines to German ammunition by drilling out the existing barrels and changing the cartridge chamber to the German caliber. The tests showed that even when proof fired with increased loads, the barrels held up and wear was within normal limits. The other changes to be made to the rifle are insignificant.
2.) Change of the Italian light M.G. 6.5 mm to German ammunition, initially using replacement barrels from the M.G.34. In addition, only insignificant, easily implemented changes are made to the weapon.
3.) xxxxxxxxxxxx Not translated
4.) In order to further cover the large demand for small arms, the Italian le. M.G. put into new production with all changes for German ammunition. There will be a monthly production of
at least 500 weapons, as well as new production of Italian carbines, also suitable for German ammunition, of at least 3,000 pieces per month."
November 15, 1944
"A large part of the WuG 2 program is made up of the conversion of the weapons 6.5 and 8 mm Italian to the German 7.92 ammunition. The carbine and the rifle 6.5 and the le.M.G. Breda 6,5 come into question here - both weapons that are still available in the companies in large numbers, both from new production and from refurbishment. Furthermore, in addition to the already ongoing change of the 8 mm M.G.'s 138 (Italian) to German ammunition for tanks, the change of the 8 mm M.G. Mod. 37 (Italian) for infantry. Trial weapons for all of the above-mentioned calibers are in progress and will be presented and tested in the next few days. If drilling out the already finished barrels (Italian cal. 6.5 mm) for German ammunition proves not to be feasible, precautions have been taken to ensure that new production continues with German interior fittings from existing barrel blanks. The first trial rifles were satisfactory and will now be used for a torture test.
From what has been listed it is clear that particularly important and urgent decisions have to be made in the infantry weapons sector, in which, in my opinion, the Amtsgruppe Prüfwesen must definitely be involved. It would therefore be advisable for a specialist in infantry weapons of the type described to be temporarily deployed for a period of 4-6 weeks as soon as possible.
It should therefore be possible to cover the large demand for rifles and machine guns on the Southern Front (German ammunition!) relatively quickly. Waiting for long trials etc. is not justifiable. It has to be improvised in the interest of rapid supplies to the Southern Front."
November 30, 1944
"The current infantry program is particularly noteworthy. The attempts to convert Italian small arms to German ammunition mentioned in the previous report have been successful, so that the following urgent programs will be implemented in the weapons sector:
1.) Converting the 6.5 mm rifles respectively carbines to German ammunition by drilling out the existing barrels and changing the cartridge chamber to the German caliber. The tests showed that even when proof fired with increased loads, the barrels held up and wear was within normal limits. The other changes to be made to the rifle are insignificant.
2.) Change of the Italian light M.G. 6.5 mm to German ammunition, initially using replacement barrels from the M.G.34. In addition, only insignificant, easily implemented changes are made to the weapon.
3.) xxxxxxxxxxxx Not translated
4.) In order to further cover the large demand for small arms, the Italian le. M.G. put into new production with all changes for German ammunition. There will be a monthly production of
at least 500 weapons, as well as new production of Italian carbines, also suitable for German ammunition, of at least 3,000 pieces per month."
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
December 15, 1944
"The WuG main group continued to place orders in the area of communications equipment, individual parts of weapons, general Army equipment, etc. In the previous report, this was particularly noted
Infantry program, especially the conversion of Italian weapons to the German 7.92 mm caliber. The relevant investigations have continued and have shown that it is also possible to continue using the barrels for the le. M.G. 6.5 mm Breda after drilling them to German caliber and changing the cartridge chamber. According to the previous test shootings, the machine gun barrels met expectations. The tests are now continuing to determine the hit pattern at 100, 200 and 300 meters."
"The WuG main group continued to place orders in the area of communications equipment, individual parts of weapons, general Army equipment, etc. In the previous report, this was particularly noted
Infantry program, especially the conversion of Italian weapons to the German 7.92 mm caliber. The relevant investigations have continued and have shown that it is also possible to continue using the barrels for the le. M.G. 6.5 mm Breda after drilling them to German caliber and changing the cartridge chamber. According to the previous test shootings, the machine gun barrels met expectations. The tests are now continuing to determine the hit pattern at 100, 200 and 300 meters."
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Some important excerpts of Oberkommando des Heeres / Heereswaffenamt Dienststelle Italien report from December 31, 1944.
December 31, 1944
Page 1
"The production of weapons, ammunition and equipment is illustrated in the overview attached in Appendix 1, which is initially available for the period from October 1, 1943 to October 31, 1944 and will later be supplemented accordingly. The Dienststelle Italien got (in round numbers):
- 95,200 machine pistol
- 53,700 pistols
- 1,150 grenade launcher 81mm
- 2,600 anti-aircraft 2cm Flak
......
etc."
Page 3
"II. Capacity issues
There is still certain free capacity in small and medium-sized mechanical engineering, which is now being fully utilized. There is a particular bottleneck in the area of barrel production, especially barrel drilling machines and barrel drawing machines for rifle, machine gun and machine pistol production. Since considerable capacity is required to carry out these large programs, there is a need to purchase a number of new machines."
Appendix 1
"Appendix 1
to the semi-monthly report 26 for the 2nd half of December 1944
Overview of the weapons, equipment and ammunition procured by the OKH / Wa A Italien between October 1, 1943 and October 31, 1944.
A. Weapons and equipment:
.......
.......
.......
- 95,234 machine pistol Beretta
- 53,725 pistol 7,65
- 41,850 rifle 91/41
- 18,994 carbine 91 a
- 23,217 carbine 91 b
- 1,300 s.M.G. Breda model 37
- 2,875 s.M.G. Breda tank model 38
- 1,733 l.M.G. Breda model 30
.......
.......
......."
Appendix 3
"Appendix 3
II. Weapons production
The current focus is on ensuring the necessary capacities for the infantry weapons program. Difficulties arise primarily in the processing capacity of the barrels, the elimination of which is planned through the short-term production of special machines.
The lack of lubricants and coolants in barrel machining has an inhibiting effect. Announcement of the analysis for substitute materials requested from Chef Ing. 4 Berlin is still pending."
December 31, 1944
Page 1
"The production of weapons, ammunition and equipment is illustrated in the overview attached in Appendix 1, which is initially available for the period from October 1, 1943 to October 31, 1944 and will later be supplemented accordingly. The Dienststelle Italien got (in round numbers):
- 95,200 machine pistol
- 53,700 pistols
- 1,150 grenade launcher 81mm
- 2,600 anti-aircraft 2cm Flak
......
etc."
Page 3
"II. Capacity issues
There is still certain free capacity in small and medium-sized mechanical engineering, which is now being fully utilized. There is a particular bottleneck in the area of barrel production, especially barrel drilling machines and barrel drawing machines for rifle, machine gun and machine pistol production. Since considerable capacity is required to carry out these large programs, there is a need to purchase a number of new machines."
Appendix 1
"Appendix 1
to the semi-monthly report 26 for the 2nd half of December 1944
Overview of the weapons, equipment and ammunition procured by the OKH / Wa A Italien between October 1, 1943 and October 31, 1944.
A. Weapons and equipment:
.......
.......
.......
- 95,234 machine pistol Beretta
- 53,725 pistol 7,65
- 41,850 rifle 91/41
- 18,994 carbine 91 a
- 23,217 carbine 91 b
- 1,300 s.M.G. Breda model 37
- 2,875 s.M.G. Breda tank model 38
- 1,733 l.M.G. Breda model 30
.......
.......
......."
Appendix 3
"Appendix 3
II. Weapons production
The current focus is on ensuring the necessary capacities for the infantry weapons program. Difficulties arise primarily in the processing capacity of the barrels, the elimination of which is planned through the short-term production of special machines.
The lack of lubricants and coolants in barrel machining has an inhibiting effect. Announcement of the analysis for substitute materials requested from Chef Ing. 4 Berlin is still pending."
Stephan, were the small arms referred to by those same designations you've provided in your translation? Its interesting to see the '91/41' designation in a period document.
It's also interesting to see the effect that lack of access to petroleum products had. Thanks very much for taking the time to locate, translate and share these documents!
Pat
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
I personally have not. I own one of those 'fake' ones that were apparently aimed at clueless Arab buyers. I couldn't tell you if if's safe, but I paid like $60? Idk, maybe more.
Many rounds have been fired through the post war ones with no problem, as long as they are in good shape and finished . Most were put together post war from parts started in late WWII by the Germans . The Carcano is basically a large ring version of the Gew-88 action , which had fired many rounds of 8mm S ammo . The things to watch out for are some did not have the barrels fully installed . Some have short chambers . Some have old barrels redone to a .323 8mm , but some have new made barrels with smaller bores . I have seen .308 - .320 to .310 - .321 . Those are a little to tight for some 8mm ammo . I built a hunting rifle out of a TS with a .308 - .320 and a short chamber . I bored out the bore to .311 and loaded .321 bullets in a 7.8x56mm case [ shortened from 8x57 mm ] . I replaced all the parts possible with ones made from aluminum and converted it to a removable box mag . I shoot the 170 at 2700 fps , in a 4.8 lb carbine . It makes an easy to carry , hard hitting gun . Works great on hogs .
A new high SN (as far as I know) was seen at the SOS this year: M38 carbine SN: K1303. It was sitting in a sanded HK stock (SN H.8932 I think) and was generally a mess, unfortunately.
The other K SN I have personally seen was a stock in the K1100 range with a mismatched H prefix action. Perhaps these very late carbines were sitting disassembled in Krieghoff when the GIs walked in the door.
The other K SN I have personally seen was a stock in the K1100 range with a mismatched H prefix action. Perhaps these very late carbines were sitting disassembled in Krieghoff when the GIs walked in the door.
joryfreeburg
Senior Member
I believe it was $2350
