The Behoerden Rg34: Photo Array

Gents:

Been a bit slow regarding the Rg34 threads. It occurred to me the military issued kits have been getting all the attention of late. However, what of the behoerden variants? In the early 1930s, internal organizations within Germany began to both increase in size and receive new arms in the form of the Mauser Oberndorf "Banner-K" rifle. Three prominent groups were the Deutsch Reichspost, Reichsbahn, and Chef des Ausbildungswesens (Sturmabteilung "SA").* S84/98 T3 collectors are familiar with behoerden bayonets contracted for the Reichspost, Reichsbahn and Police. It would then be no surprise these same organizations would also have a need for Rg34s to service their weapons as well.

In 1935, there were four firms producing the Rg34 for the German military. G Appel, having patented the design and likely being the largest, produced the vast majority of behoerden kits for these organizations and others, including export sales. Although Rg34s stamped with district abbreviations or acceptance marks for the Police, Reichspost and SA are presented here, I have yet to see any kits attributed to the Reichsbahn (until seeing the example in post#2). I reached out to a few fellow collectors for input and will start off with these first seven examples. I hope others will follow my lead and post photos and details of additional behoerden Rg34s to this thread.

Top Row:
1. G Appel 1935 (standart font) marking on tin with Groß-font markings on components. Police "starburst L" on lid.

2. G Appel 1935 (standart font) marking on tin/components. "DRP Kln" (Koln) inside lid.

3. G Appel 1935 (klein font) marking on tin/components. "DRP Dssd" (Dusseldorf) inside lid. Stick/Eagle WaA134 on lid.

4. Unk/unattributed early kit (likely G Appel) with "stacked" "DRP Dssd" marking in lid.

5. G Appel 1935 ((Groß font) marking on tin. Unk. on components. "DRP" (over) "rh". Likely a partial stamp for
"Klrh" (Karlsruhe).

Bottom Row:
6-8. G Appel 1935 (klein font) marking on tin/components with "ChdaW" representing "Chef des Ausbildungswesens" (Sturmabteilung/training). The "W" is not typical, but attributed to a SA site security facility in Wachschutz, Berlin.* What appears to be a rifle serial number (but believed to be a sequential contract serial number (post#s 3 & 4) "06009" is also on the tin lid. Lastly, "153" (issue Nr?) is stamped on the side of the tin. Raritait!

9-10. G Appel 1938 kit bearing a rifle serial number on the left side of the lid "G" (Gewehr) 9930 (over) letter-bloc suffix "t".

* Karabiner 98K Vol 1 pg. 177 by Kareem & Steves

G.Appel 1937 kit with D.R. (Reichsbahn) property stamp.

I think the number on the ChdAW kits has nothing to do with a rifle serial#, but rather is a consecutive production number of the cleaning kits for the SA.
What is the highest reported serial# on ChdAW kits?

Amberg said:

I think the number on the ChdAW kits has nothing to do with a rifle serial#, but rather is a consecutive production number of the cleaning kits for the SA. What is the highest reported serial# on ChdAW kits?

Click to expand...

I agree. This is a number for the rg34 not the rifle. The highest number that I have recorded is 19803.

Slash said:

The highest number that I have recorded is 19803.

Click to expand...

Thank you!

G.Appel kit with the name tag of a police officer.

Amberg & Slash: Good information on the ChdAW kit serial numbers. Will amend my initial post to reflect this. Also very much appreciate the photo Amberg supplied of his "winged-wheel|DR" Reichsbahn issued Rg34. Can now say I have seen (at least a photo) such a kit at long last! Also like that "tagged" Police issued G Appel kit , too.

Wanted to add the following for clarity. Seems there are three or four marking variants for G. Appel during 1935. For lack of a better way to describe them, perhaps we could refer to the markings as:

1. Klein ("micro", single-line capital letters & 1935 date). Stamping seen on tin, oiler, RGK & HKW. Utilized for short duration.

2. Standart ("stacked" maker|date w/Upper & lower case letters). Form primarily utilized until the code change to "64" in 1938 for military contract production. Note: A "thin-font" variant of this marking has also been reported (see post#26).

3. Behoerden/Standart (no date, single-line maker w/Upper & lower case letters). Style primarily for behoerden production.

4. Groß (single-line maker w/all capital letters and no date c.a. 1935). Stamping observed on tin, oiler, RGK & HKW. Utilized for short duration. This may be the first type font for the "Behoerden/Standart", as components similarly marked typically do not bear any WaA acceptance markings. Note in Post#8 what appears to be another variant of this type marking with 1935 date added.

It is not unusual to find mixed marked components in the 1935 kits. However, it is not uncommon to find a behoerden organizational marking in or on, a WaA accepted kit. By the same token, the single-line variant (#3) tins are sometimes seen bearing a WaA acceptance as well. The example pictured below has a WaA67 acceptance...c.a. 1938. Likely demands to fulfill delivery quotas sometimes resulted in kits being diverted where they were most needed...regardless of whether they were originally destined for the OKH or another customer.

pwcosol said:

Bottom Row:
6-8. G Appel 1935 (klein font) marking on tin/components with "ChdaW" representing "Chef des Ausbildungswesens" (Sturmabteilung/training). The "W" is not typical, but attributed to a SA site security facility in Wachschutz, Berlin.* What appears to be a rifle serial number (but believed to be a sequential contract serial number (post#s 3 & 4) "06009" is also on the tin lid. Lastly, "153" (issue Nr?) is stamped on the side of the tin. Raritait!

* Karabiner 98K Vol 1 pg. 177 by Kareem & Steves

Click to expand...

Very interesting post !

I have always seen the letters ChdAW, deciphered in the Karabiner 98k Vol 1 book, just like "Chef des Ausbildungswesens". It is interesting to know about the possibility that the letter W means something else.

It appears that NS organizations like the SA were the first users of the Reinigungsgerät 34, probably even before its official adoption by the Wehrmacht in September 1934.

Antoni

Thought there might be value in adding to the pwcosol information. I have identified three markings used by Gustav Appel in 1935. Without question there are also unmarked cans made by Appel in 1935 and probably 1934. The 1935 dates that I have recorded are as follows:

- G. APPEL 1935 (one line)

- G. APPEL > 1935 (two line)

- G. Appel > 1935 (two line)

Have placed these in the order (top to bottom) I feel they were applied or utilized. The small uppercase letters in one line being the first marking. Followed by the larger uppercase letters over 1935 in two lines. Which evolved into the upper and lowercase letters over 1935 marking. This style became the "standard" marking configuration for the next several years with only the date changing.

None of the 1935 dated kits are particularly common. Many if not most are without WaA proof mark although some are found with a "droop wing" eagle WaA139. From the database studies the G. APPEL 1935 one line is the most commonly encountered marking followed by the the G. Appel 1935 two line. The uppercase G. APPEL 1935 in two lines is the scarcest marking of the three. Perhaps it was transitional between the other two styles and only used for a short period of time? Also note that the font and spacing of the G. APPEL over 1935 marking can vary (see comparison photo of two examples). The letter font is slightly different between these markings. Particularly noticeable is the "pointed top" A found on one can versus the A with "flat top" seen on the other. The top can also has an interesting stamping of S. 146 along with scratched Ho initials. Early behälter are frequently encountered with G. K. or P. stampings for the type of weapon however I am unfamiliar with the meaning of an S. stamp. We still have much to learn about these very early rg34.

Slash:
Thanks for your input on these early Appel kits. The "Groß" font "G APPEL" stamping with 1935 added separately below it is a new one to me. Your conjecture of it being a transitional marking makes sense (and the relative scarcity of tins so marked tends to reinforce this probability). Now the hunt is on to find one...but still need the "Klein" as well.

Here are a couple of mine....the DRP Hnvr is real hard to make out.

pwcosol said:

Bottom Row:
6-8. G Appel 1935 (klein font) marking on tin/components with "ChdaW" representing "Chef des Ausbildungswesens" (Sturmabteilung/training). The "W" is not typical, but attributed to a SA site security facility in Wachschutz, Berlin.* What appears to be a rifle serial number (but believed to be a sequential contract serial number (post#s 3 & 4) "06009" is also on the tin lid. Lastly, "153" (issue Nr?) is stamped on the side of the tin. Raritait!

Click to expand...

G.Appel1935 and ChdAW marked???

The Wachschutz Groß-Berlin, Berlin-Friedenau, Stubenrauchstrasse 3, was a privately owned security company. Since the company was still in existence after WWII, I very much doubt that the Wachschutz Berlin had anything to do with the SA.

Thanks
Wolfgang

Peter S said:

Here are a couple of mine....the DRP Hnvr is real hard to make out.

Click to expand...

I remember a discussion about the DRP Schw stamp.
What was the final conclusion?
Schweinfurt or Schwerin?

Thanks
Wolfgang

Peter S said:

Here are a couple of mine....the DRP Hnvr is real hard to make out.

Click to expand...

Pete:

Very interesting kits you have there! Would be nice to see the components laid out on those first two kits as well and how they are marked (if so). Have never seen a brass swivel link boss with the "fishhooks" before, either. When one thinks of a brass link boss on the RGK, the Portuguese contract kits come to mind. However, those are somewhat crude and the way the link is pinned to the boss is often poor. However, the one on your "DRP | Bswg" (BTW, what city is that one?) shows no discernible pin and is of high quality. Maybe it is the very first variant of the RGK? Also looks like both kits have early HKWs, too. Inquiring minds want to know...

pwcosol said:

"DRP | Bswg" (BTW, what city is that one?)

Click to expand...

I wondered that too. Braunschweig seems the most plausible I guess?

Btw guys I'm following the discussion and looking at all the pretty pictures you've shared. Even though I don't own any I still think it's an interesting topic.

Peter S said:

Here are a couple of mine....the DRP Hnvr is real hard to make out.

Click to expand...

My DRP Hnvr is hard to make out, too.
The DRP Mind was much nicer stamped.

heavy_mech said:

Braunschweig seems the most plausible I guess?

Click to expand...

Most likely Braunschweig. I can not think of another city over here that might fit.

pwcosol said:

Pete:

Very interesting kits you have there! Would be nice to see the components laid out on those first two kits as well and how they are marked (if so). Have never seen a brass swivel link boss with the "fishhooks" before, either. When one thinks of a brass link boss on the RGK, the Portuguese contract kits come to mind. However, those are somewhat crude and the way the link is pinned to the boss is often poor. However, the one on your "DRP | Bswg" (BTW, what city is that one?) shows no discernible pin and is of high quality. Maybe it is the very first variant of the RGK? Also looks like both kits have early HKWs, too. Inquiring minds want to know...

Click to expand...

I will take some pictures of the components in the next couple of days, but for now I can tell you that the swivel link boss with the fish hooks is made of steel. It is a combination of the lighting and patina that gives it a brass color. The pin is barely visible on one side and it appears as tough the hole for it is not a through hole.

Peter S said:

I will take some pictures of the components in the next couple of days, but for now I can tell you that the swivel link boss with the fish hooks is made of steel. It is a combination of the lighting and patina that gives it a brass color. The pin is barely visible on one side and it appears as tough the hole for it is not a through hole.

Click to expand...

Dang! Sure does look like brass to me. Well, so much for that theory. Otherwise, appreciate your willingness to add a few more pics to your post. This topic is picking up speed and am hoping to see a number of other revelations as well.

DRP Hnvr

More pictures of the DRP Hnvr Rg34 from post #11 What's really sweet about this kit is, it has the early HKS without the floorplate stud.

DRP Bswg

More pictures of the DRP Bswg Rg34 from post #11. This kit has the early RGK with the fish hooks AKA butterfly chain. The end looks like brass but is really steel (verified with a magnet). The HKW is unmarked and one that I added just to fill the hole.