Thoughts on the "L" Marked ZF4 Scope

I just finished devouring the book "Lions of Carentan", FJ Regiment 6, 1943-1945 so a big thank you to jh41 for bringing this book to my attention. A great read with very interesting illustrations and photos, highly recommended.

I noted a couple of references in the book that got me to thinking about the weapons deployment to the FJ units in the western European area. There is a portion of the chapter(page 73) regarding the reorganization of this FJ unit in Cologne-Wahn in 1944 that reads as follows:

"The battalions consisted of three Jäger (light infantry) companies and one company armed with heavy machine guns and mortars. The light infantry companies valued the development of firepower, so every squad had not one but two machine-gun sections at their disposal. The light infantry companies were for the most part armed with the Karabiner 98k rifles, but Major von der Heydte managed, in addition to the MP38s and MP40s that were usually issued to the platoon and squad leaders, to get submachine guns for their second-in-commands also as well as models of the FG42, the weapon that had been specially designed for the deployment by parachute troops. Particularly good marksmen received the semi-automatic, self-loading G43."

Many of us have seen the ZF4 scopes in publications that are engraved with the FG42 designation along with the specific rifles serial number. The scopes I am referring to are those of the ZF4 series that are specifically identified with both an "L" on the side of the tube as well as the elevation knob which has been attributed to Luftwaffe issue and not engraved with any FG42 markings. Could this excerpt point to the use of the G/K43 series rifles as the sniper weapon of choice by the Luftwaffe FJ units and explain the "L" marked scopes? Any thoughts G/K43 collectors?

It seems unlikely to me that Walther or BLM would have been making a special run of K43 snipers with L marked scopes. Production was entirely under Heer control as was distribution, so the Luftwaffe K43 snipers would have been provided by the Heer and indistinguishable from factory sniper production.

IMO the L scopes are a special run (or perhaps Luftwaffe modified) for the stamped FG42. Since the 2nd pattern FG42 production started so late, "sniper" production was virtually non-existent and thus almost none of the L marked scope were used which is why there are so many floating around. This is all speculation of course, but it seems to make sense.

Have you compared the L marked elevation knobs to standard ZF4 knobs? Any differences?

Phsically the appear the same with the exception of the "L" marking. Without dis-assembly it may not be possible to tell if the elevation is calibrated differently. I suppose one could set one up and check it with a laser bore sight tool against a typical ZF4. Has anyone seen an "L" marked scope manufactured by anyone other than "ddx"?

Is it possible the "L" or luft designation has something to do with scopes subjected to changes in altitude related to flying? Perhaps they have some feature to prevent affects of rapid or extreme pressure changes.

tjg79 said:

Is it possible the "L" or luft designation has something to do with scopes subjected to changes in altitude related to flying? Perhaps they have some feature to prevent affects of rapid or extreme pressure changes.

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Why mark the elevation knobs then?

RyanE said:

Why mark the elevation knobs then?

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I don't know, but the elevation knobs could be special from regular knobs and be part of the feature. They are points of entry into the scope body. Knobs for "L" marked scopes are also marked "L" so they won't be incorrectly assembled in depot type maintenance? If you had a parts manual for both "L" marked and non-marked Zf.4 scopes, it might give some clues.

I have always wondered why so many (relatively) of these show up in comparison with any other given FG42 part ever made?

It has traditionally been stated that these scopes were intended for the FG42 rifle, by the Luftwaffe. As Ryan was getting at, they probably had great dreams of making large amounts of FG42's with scopes and had an order already placed. Things did not go as planned and, well, the scopes were already made or being made and they had to complete the contract. This seems to be the same for all ZF4 scopes...many more scopes than available mounts, or so it seems anyways!

Now, would the FG42 have a noticeably different trajectory that would require a specific elevation "drum", hence the "L" marking on all of the "L" marked bodies. For some reason, they had to have the two together.

Now, did the Kurz specific (MP44) have a special elevation drum?? These would have significant elevation setting distances as compared to standard 8mm rounds. I do not recall seeing any different elevation markings on the ones I saw. They are clearly marked for Kurs ammo though.

Maybe some of our scope experts can chime in here.

It's known that "P" marked scopes for the MP44 had a different elevation calibration curve and I think they are more rare than "L" marked scopes. I would think if "L" marked scopes had a special elevation calibration curve, that would be known as well.

Now, did the Kurz specific (MP44) have a special elevation drum?? These would have significant elevation setting distances as compared to standard 8mm rounds. I do not recall seeing any different elevation markings on the ones I saw. They are clearly marked for Kurs ammo though.

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Yes, the "P" marked ZF4 scopes are calibrated for the kurz round. The elevation drum is graduated only up to "6", not the usual "8". The reticle has a larger jump with each adjustment as well. There is a recent thread in the "Scope and Optics" section about the ZF4 "P" scope.

Great, now what does the "L" really stand for? Then again, what does the "P" really signify?!

One of these days we'll figure it out Brian. Found that passage in Lions of Carentan that might be clue, who knows?

tjg79 said:

It's known that "P" marked scopes for the MP44 had a different elevation calibration curve and I think they are more rare than "L" marked scopes. I would think if "L" marked scopes had a special elevation calibration curve, that would be known as well.

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I am not sure about this. It would need a trial-Shooting with scopes which are above doubt that they work incorrect because of age. It seems to me logical that FG42 and K43 have a different curve. L means Luftwaffe to me, P means Pistole. About 10% of all ddx scopes are L marked. P marked scopes were made only for trials in Kummersdorf. The guns were used up in the endfightings over Berlin. So these scopes are absolutely rare. I know only 3 originals.

Another narcoleptic-thread revival:

RyanE said:

It seems unlikely to me that Walther or BLM would have been making a special run of K43 snipers with L marked scopes. Production was entirely under Heer control as was distribution, so the Luftwaffe K43 snipers would have been provided by the Heer and indistinguishable from factory sniper production.

IMO the L scopes are a special run (or perhaps Luftwaffe modified) for the stamped FG42. Since the 2nd pattern FG42 production started so late, "sniper" production was virtually non-existent and thus almost none of the L marked scope were used which is why there are so many floating around. This is all speculation of course, but it seems to make sense.

Have you compared the L marked elevation knobs to standard ZF4 knobs? Any differences?

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This was the correct answer according to my research - and that is only according top other peoples research - Death from Above and FG42.

20,000 or so "L" marked Zf4 manufactured for the G-type FG42 rifle, which was made on a run that was short of 6,000 units, of these units only one in six or so would have been fitted with a scope - meaning a "fair" mount of excess scopes were on hand - hence being distributed for use on other rifle systems.
It is by far, the most common FG42 accessory available, unless you count the ammunition.

Brian Kowalski said:

Great, now what does the "L" really stand for?

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According to some "new" documents found at our federal archive concerning the GwZF4, the "L" stands for Luftwaffe use.

File note dated early August 1944:
Scopes for the Luftwaffe are to be engraved with a "L"
The Voigtländer company was informed that the meter dial tested with scope # 40259 is approved. The scope was sent back to the company.

In an earlier document, dated May 1944:
The scope, originally developed for the Luftwaffe, was tested by the Army. Now it is approved by the Army and soon will be issued with the G43.
The Army mount is inappropriate for Luftwaffe use.
Krieghoff developed a new mount for the FG42.

December 1944:
The Army High Command (OKH) requests a different inscription on the scopes. Voigtländer now has to change the inscription on scopes already produced for the Army.
Inscription on scopes for the Luftwaffe remain unchanged.
The Walther company complained about the GwZF4. After some tests, it was found out that the inaccuracy is caused by the base and mount.


WWII and semi auto rifles are not my world, but if I can find out more, I'll keep you updated.

Thanks
Wolfgang

I am sure that the calibration curves are the same for a normal elevation drum and a "L" marked elevation drum. The K43 and FG42 used the same ammunition; the barrel length is a little different 520 mm versus 500 mm but this doesn't matter anything in practical use. Both drums end at 800 m whereas the "P" marked drum ends at 600 m. The MP44 used a much different ammunition so it's logical that the "P" elevation drum is much different compared to the other two.
So we need now a person having both a normal ZF4 and a "L" marked ZF4 to count the numbers of clicks from bottom to top on both scopes. I think they are almost the same.

When I still collected WW2 scopes I tried it out. IIRR the number of clicks was identical, but the space/distance between the "1" and the "8" on the elevation drum was different.
If nobody else is faster, I'll have a look next week, when I'm back home.
Thanks
Wolfgang

nahpatronen said:

I am sure that the calibration curves are the same for a normal elevation drum and a "L" marked elevation drum. The K43 and FG42 used the same ammunition; the barrel length is a little different 550 mm versus 500 mm but this doesn't matter anything in practical use. Both drums end at 800 m whereas the "P" marked drum ends at 600 m. The MP44 used a much different ammunition so it's logical that the "P" elevation drum is much different compared to the other two.
So we need now a person having both a normal ZF4 and a "L" marked ZF4 to count the numbers of clicks from bottom to top on both scopes. I think they are almost the same.

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Hallo,

I compaired ddx 70092 and ddx 70122, I think they are close enough for compairson.

The clicks are analogue to the elevation markings and identic, the distance between the 1 an 8 marking is slightly different (16,1 mm and 15,6 mm for the "L" scope) .

The design of the elevation drum is slightly different, so the "L" marked drums seem to come from a own production run.

I compaired randomly with other scopes and these differences are still present.

Bud the drum itself is not a good indicator for compairing the calibration, because the calibration curve is a internal part of the scope, the drum is just the handle.

So I will put the two scopes in a device to compaire the elevation, bud I can realize this in the next days.

Sorry for the bad pictures, there is not enough daylight today.

Viele Grüße, best regards,

Georg

Somebody has suggested to make a testshooting. That isn't necessary. Place the scope in a vice. Let it point at a target at 100 - 200 meters distance. And measure the distance between the aiming points for 100 m and 800 m. Voila as they say in France.
That is teoretically correct, but my experiences say that the function of the ZF4 leaves much to be desired. Sometimes nothing happens with 1 - 2 - 3 clicks - and then suddenly much happens - often too much.
I have read that the German infantry school didn't find the quality of the ZF4 satisfactory. This is understandable.