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Odd Vz.23/24 German mod.?

Hambone

Community Organizer
Staff member
I just got this in this week, middle bayonet. It's about unissued shape, CSZ / A , no Czech inspections, dates, lion inspections. I didn't realize when I bought it that it was the short model "export" Vz.23/24 bayonet German modded. Ring removed and new grips fitted with German Sg. grip screws and nuts, not Czech, with what also looks to be a German catch button added to the pommel, pommel ground. Unsharpened, that blade wear is the tight retention spring in the scabbard. Pictured next to a WaA80 Vz.24 mod and a combat vet German Sg. Any thoughts?
 

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Hello, the piece is made on Vz.33 most likely gendarmery bayonet , its a reworked to function and dimension of Vz.24 lenght handle, from the sources that i had from Czechia, this bayonets, similar with no functionable press button or only full rohling pommel were made postwar in Czechoslovakia for Film Studios, many were sold to USA in early 90ies, unfortunally many collectors are in opinion it was made by germans in WW2, similar exist on M1895 blades too.please could You provide details of stamping on frog stud? thanks. I believe there is a imperial austrian M1895 scabbard.
 
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Thanks Andy. The world was awash in $4.00 retail to the public (from Interarms) German bayonets postwar through the 1960s, and they are still available cheap as mismatched bulk surplus items. If they were $4.00 retail in the late 1960s, including importation, shipping, and handling from Europe, wouldn't they be much less than that in Europe? What would be the need to perform fairly extensive (relatively speaking) reworks to a Vz.24 or Vz.33 bayonet in the manner of a German bayonet, with German components, for a film studio when they could have surplus bayonets given to them by the government or purchase them dirt cheap? And for that matter, back then, even in big budget Hollywood productions, they would have simply used bayonets of almost any kind to be "German bayonets". It makes little sense really. ;)

I've seen a solid pommel bayonets like this, with the German grip screws. I've also seen solid pommel German made bayonets of the same period. My understanding was these were "sidearm" bayonets.
 
I believe they were gived from Gendarmery or State for free to the film studios, but as the rifles were already captured by germans or lost in war, they needed some bayonets for avialable older Mauser rifles, so i have heard, in postwar of Czechoslovakia normal german bayonets were used in Army and later exported to DDR or other communist countries as help. The german screws and a parts are not so problem in that time, same as the condition of reworks varied from very bad(that could nt be made by germans)to very nice. The avialability of various M1895 used parts speaks more for non WW2 reworks.
I hope Roger A.would be not bad, that i use his picture, the wood grips and welding could be certainly dont made by germans and not even in case of a sidearm.thats my opinion. They didnt use this beech wood of any of sidearms.Same as the color of blueing is typical postwar dark tone. On Your piece are nice nut wood grips, maybe made from a normal spare parts, anyway, is the cleaning channel free?
 

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I believe they were gived from Gendarmery or State for free to the film studios, but as the rifles were already captured by germans or lost in war, they needed some bayonets for avialable older Mauser rifles, so i have heard, in postwar of Czechoslovakia normal german bayonets were used in Army and later exported to DDR or other communist countries as help. The german screws and a parts are not so problem in that time, same as the condition of reworks varied from very bad(that could nt be made by germans)to very nice. The avialability of various M1895 used parts speaks more for non WW2 reworks.
I hope Roger A.would be not bad, that i use his picture, the wood grips and welding could be certainly dont made by germans and not even in case of a sidearm.thats my opinion. They didnt use this beech wood of any of sidearms.Same as the color of blueing is typical postwar dark tone. On Your piece are nice nut wood grips, maybe made from a normal spare parts, anyway, is the cleaning channel free?


The wood is walnut, not beech. Again, respectfully, I don't see how or why a "film studio" would waste a bunch of time and money cutting the ring and fabricating this into German spec., using German bayonet grip screws when they had plenty (as you stated) German bayonets on hand surplus (Europe and Cz. were awash in them postwar because we were awash in them too ;). Postwar Czech commercial bayonets had the rings on them, all I've seen. These bayonets may have been released by a Czech film studio, like the SS caps and such which bear those stamps, but I don't know if they would have manufactured them.

The cleaning rod hole is drilled out so that it will go on a rifle with the rod. The catch looks like it works, but it is stiff and may be frozen. The finish looks to me just like other German modified Vz. bayonets, which were not all factory done, as you know. I'm not trying to justify anything or in denial because the bayonet cost me $45 delivered. I'm saying that the "film studio" theory makes very little objective sense from the bayonet and facts. The facts and history point to a German modification. If there is more definite information concerning a "film studio" doing this, other than opinion, then that would certainly add weight to that theory :thumbsup: I just cannot fathom why anyone would go to the time, expense, work and trouble at a film studio to make a Vz.33 bayonet look like a German bayonet, and bob the ring, etc., when they had piles of German bayonets.
 
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I understand your point on this, but i personally dont like the variety of the bad realised conversions that should be declared as german sidearms, in time when enough KS98 dress were made for using as sidearms, why germans would be made a full Vz.24 pommell or full handle pommel without slot??, many Vz.33 as sidearms are known ugraded to german standarts with removing barellring and rotating the mouth in scabbard but the pommel remained unchanged. I personally believe many of this went too to the studios.
Other point that many surplus german bayonets were available were free on market in postwar period, is certainly a free democracy member opinion, in postwar Czechoslovakia were very strenght laws about arms, so no way of normal surplus dealing, all was controlled by army and communist party.
Other way the Film studios have employed many people to made self the needings for this. I came the info from a previous owner who personally sent about 50 of these bayonets to USA in early 90 ies, he mentioned buying it dirrect from depots of Film Studios. There were many films about gendarmery in post 1950 period.I have so information.
No evidence of these pieces in old literature is other point.
Many have the correct wood grips only shortened, many have the large screws of Vz.33 and many are made of M1895, mainly czechoslovak proofed.But many are bad rewelded with new beech grips and bad blued.That certainly didnt speak for german reworks, as when Vz24 were reworked in many different cases the condition to attach to rifle and the overall refinishing procces was very well made.
 
I understand your point on this, but i personally dont like the variety of the bad realised conversions that should be declared as german sidearms, in time when enough KS98 dress were made for using as sidearms, why germans would be made a full Vz.24 pommell or full handle pommel without slot??, many Vz.33 as sidearms are known ugraded to german standarts with removing barellring and rotating the mouth in scabbard but the pommel remained unchanged. I personally believe many of this went too to the studios.
Other point that many surplus german bayonets were available were free on market in postwar period, is certainly a free democracy member opinion, in postwar Czechoslovakia were very strenght laws about arms, so no way of normal surplus dealing, all was controlled by army and communist party.
Other way the Film studios have employed many people to made self the needings for this. I came the info from a previous owner who personally sent about 50 of these bayonets to USA in early 90 ies, he mentioned buying it dirrect from depots of Film Studios. There were many films about gendarmery in post 1950 period.I have so information.
No evidence of these pieces in old literature is other point.
Many have the correct wood grips only shortened, many have the large screws of Vz.33 and many are made of M1895, mainly czechoslovak proofed.But many are bad rewelded with new beech grips and bad blued.That certainly didnt speak for german reworks, as when Vz24 were reworked in many different cases the condition to attach to rifle and the overall refinishing procces was very well made.

Andy, we have two theories then: 1) This bayonet was converted by a Czech film studio post war; 2) This bayonet was converted by the German depot / HzA / armorer system. First, I do not think it is a Vz.33 bayonet. I believe it is the Vz.23 bayonet, "short". The pommel is quite different on the Vz.33 bayonet than this one. Here:
http://rml1708.com/MyCzechWebpage/bayonets.htm

I'll address the facts and evidence supporting each theory:
 
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Firstly the Vz.33 reworked pieces, i personally dont believe it was realised by HZA! It was realised mostly by police armorers for dress using, as Vz.33 have a short Mauser slot attachment this didnt work when You remove the barell ring, so its no a bayonet but only a Sidearm, not possible to use this in combat or bayonet fight.
Secondly there exist manuals for reworking Vz.24 bayonets and their using on rifles, but no manuals on reworking Vz.33 bayonets.
Thirdly Your bayonet is certainly a Vz.33 piece,with removed pommel, and new pommel added, the grips are made from mostly spare parts, but without drilling holes, as the small screws would be lost in large holes for original screws.
You should looks under grips.I believe when the tang is ok and not very refurbisched, You should found there a E lion 35 acceptance.
As mentioned before, there could be a possibility that germans removed by some of the Vz.33 the barrell rings and used its as dress sidearm, but certainly only in area of Protektorat.
Postwar all these pieces were most real send to Film Studios as not usable already for Army or any other branch in CSR.
Or You have a story from Vet, that he found it on a dead german SS body?:laugh:
I believe these piece were not prior 1990 in USA, and were not found in any large old collection. I believe Mike Welser or other would write about this in early 80ies??
But maybe You will find other proofs?
Please add a nice pictures of all markings, of pommel and when possible remove grips to look under it. thanks.b.r.
 
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Firstly the Vz.33 reworked pieces, i personally dont believe it was realised by HZA! It was realised mostly by police armorers for dress using, as Vz.33 have a short Mauser slot attachment this didnt work when You remove the barell ring, so its no a bayonet but only a Sidearm, not possible to use this in combat or bayonet fight.
Secondly there exist manuals for reworking Vz.24 bayonets and their using on rifles, but no manuals on reworking Vz.33 bayonets.
Thirdly Your bayonet is certainly a Vz.33 piece,with removed pommel, and new pommel added, the grips are made from mostly spare parts, but without drilling holes, as the small screws would be lost in large holes for original screws.
You should looks under grips.I believe when the tang is ok and not very refurbisched, You should found there a E lion 35 acceptance.
As mentioned before, there could be a possibility that germans removed by some of the Vz.33 the barrell rings and used its as dress sidearm, but certainly only in area of Protektorat.
Postwar all these pieces were most real send to Film Studios as not usable already for Army or any other branch in CSR.
Or You have a story from Vet, that he found it on a dead german SS body?:laugh:
I believe these piece were not prior 1990 in USA, and were not found in any large old collection. I believe Mike Welser or other would write about this in early 80ies??
But maybe You will find other proofs?

There is a difference between a Czech film studio CONVERTING them and a Czech film studio USING them. As you know, there are large quantities of original German WW2 fieldgear, hats, uniforms, etc., with Czech postwar film studio stamps sold on the collector markets. I'm also not sure this isn't a usable bayonet. The parts look like they work and I haven't tried to unfreeze the button, but I'll look more closely this weekend. All due respect, just as a vet story, so to is a story of a "film studio made it" without more. I think it is rather far fetched to conclude that a Czech film studio made them when your country was literally awash in German WW2 fieldgear, helmets, bayonets, and everything else. I don't think a bayonet is a very controlled item. Would a "Czech film studio" would take the time to manufacture this bayonet / convert this bayonet to do a movie about the Czech. police who didn't even use this type of bayonet?

Furthermore, when did any movie studio go to so much trouble to make a bayonet, worn by some movie extra in a crowd, look exactly like a German converted bayonet? Film productions have budgets and 99.9% of their audience wouldn't know this from an M.95 or any other Czech bayonet. That sounds rather unusual, about as far fetched as "I found this on an SS body" :laugh: There were German regulations on the conversion of these. I have maybe almost a dozen of them, all a little different in finish and modifications, but I guarantee they weren't made by a Czech film studio. I don't think it unusual at all that the Germans would modify a Vz.23 short or Vz.33 bayonet to German specs. I find it highly unusual that a "Czech film studio" would. This is consistent in finish and ring cutting as my other Vz.24 modified bayonets, with German parts. The skill and level of reworking varied from depot to depot, at least this is quite true with K98ks, so I don't know how that variance would be different with bayonets.
 
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ok is Your opinion, i remains on mine, because of known the man who told me the story.
Is no way, that You understand the condition in communist period, as You dont lived here, bayonets were as army equipment forbidden, and by ilegal owning for a rifle K98k was a 5 years jail, certainly is to difference the period when these items came to Film studios, the various german equipment came to Filmstudios in period when it was saled by army, so in late 50ies. There were workplaces to made and update the equipment there.I believe these bayonets came in Filmstudios in 1946 or earlier.
Anyway the germans didnt rework Vz.23 short bayonets, and the Vz.33 were reworked only in manner that was the typical by barell ring remove.but there exist no manuals for reworking this modell same is no reworking manual for M1895 which is the RA piece.
It would be nice that You could provide the detailed info of Your piece??.
Pictures are attached of a Vz.33 rework to full Vz.24 pommel, with correct scabbard, and normal czechoslovak screws and shortened grips of Vz.33 piece.
second one R.Adkins pieces, a M1895 cs. marked with normall pommel and new beech wood grips,german screws
second M1895 with cs marking reworked to full Vz.24 pommel and new grips with german screw and a normal czechoslovak Vz.33 piece under it.
 

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Thank you for the information Andy. I checked the bayonet and the catch indeed does not work. This could not be used, from what I see now, as a bayonet for a rifle. Thus, what you are saying is not without merit. I will take better pictures. If I can remove the grips without messing with the screw heads (I have the proper screwdriver set, but they may be frozen), I will do so and take pictures. My purpose is always getting to the correct and right answer, not the one I want ;)
 
I fully understand You, i am same opinion, i am looking for arguments, but my english is not so good. I was personally in late 90 ies same opinion like Yours that it should be a german rework. But from various sources i became informations that already for me is more real the version of Film studios rework. Mainly the M1895 configuration reworks speaks for this.
Same as normal Vz.33 german rework have the standart Vz.33 pommel and they are in nice condition to compare with some of the Filmstudios pieces.
And the no evidence of similar pieces in old collections and pre 1990 literature.:thumbsup:
 

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