CE 44 SWEPT BACK SNIPER W/specially marked zf4 scope..

mauser99 · Mar 24, 2014

After a big foot type sighting in Maryland the elusive swept back Ce44 sniper was bagged and photographed in Connecticut and mass.. When looking at an item like this my thought process is "it's fake till I can prove otherwise or can find no fault in the item" I could not find any. How many were made seems to be anyone's guess.. Members here know they exist and know they are real. I took some pic's and I was not happy with them.. Some day I will get some better ones post. Some under the hood to see exactly how they reshaped the side of the receiver has I had never noticed before that the side wall was take down slightly. Making the Mod98 barely legible. There are also other key features that lead us to figure out this was the real deal.. It was not going to be left there.. A deal was hashed out. Take a look. Rifle is flat new..

mauser99 · Mar 24, 2014

more

here are the rest and some of the mount.. the camera macro got shut off so a lot of the mount photos were to blurry to post..

The K.Z.F. marked scope is of note. After looking it over well. I could see no modifications to it internally or externally other than the three letters scribed into it.
What it is a DDX scope made just before the last variation. GAs plug with K43 marking. So maybe a short lived transitional marking ? Or specific marking if used on the K98 ? Thoughts ?

RyanE · Mar 24, 2014

Wow! Definitely looks right.

Is the mount numbered to the rifle?

mauser99 · Mar 24, 2014

RyanE said:
Wow! Definitely looks right.

Is the mount numbered to the rifle?

no it doesn't match.. It is numbered. Weather they were numbered to rifle or not is not known as far as I know. The mount was the only thing we weren't 100% on as we had never had one in hand to compare. Only crappy photos in a few books.. Besides we had him throw it in.. :thumbsup:

Another odd thing was the scope was off the mount ? maybe it was taken apart at the show ?

Bigdibbs88 · Mar 24, 2014

that is an incredible find if its real. In any case the condition of the rifle is amazing. I would love to see one of these in the flesh

Dave Roberts · Mar 24, 2014

The Mounts were Numbered to Rifle . The 17 stamped on inside is correct as is the 23 on the Base .
The Rifle itself is in correct Letter Block . There is a few minor differences on this subject from other known or Published Swept Back Snipers such as No Long Key Safety and no Checkered Butt Plate . This is a similar occurrence on Sauer finished LSR`s some have these parts some don`t . IMHO opinion these are most likely the hardest of all variants to authenticate due to so little info and or so few original subjects rifles . Very Nice Condition . Best Regards

Absolut · Mar 25, 2014

Great to now see a rifle in detail, not only the greyscale pictures from Roberts book. I also often kept wondering about the strange front sight the rifle in Roberts book has. K.Z.F. is sometimes translated as "Karabiner ZielFernrohr", so an official designation for the K98k rifle. Sounds logical, but of course cannot be confirmed.

Dave, would you let me know to what you refer with "correct letter block" - were these swept back snipers all in a specific letter block? That would make it easy to identify fakes!

One thing I noticed while looking at the pictures, the scope mount is renumbered. If you look closely, you can see a "15" below the "17". And just since I'm curious how they really managed to mount the scope rail: did they also solder the base to the rifle, or is it really only held in place by two pins? It just sounds too little with only the two pins ..

One last question: how much did you pay for that rifle? Just to give me an idea on those (also via PM if you don't want to post it here).

mauser99 · Mar 25, 2014

my thoughts..

Are as such.. the mount and base have this mating numbered added. This would be to keep the bases and mounts together during the process.

From what I was told #29 was the highest observed mount so far. So the mount was for base #17 the over stamp could and probably is typical mis-numbering error typical In production.

The mount was numbered externally with what I think could have been the a rifles serial #. The photo was so blurry I couldn't post it..

mauser99 · Mar 25, 2014

correct range..

The rifle is a "u" block which made sense to me as That's when JPS gets into the long side rail game and were probably developing this Swept back design. The example in Senich's book is a "U" and it's either one digit higher or lower. I cant remember. I figured that was a good sign.

The other major key feature is the side rail area has been taken down and reshaped. The base is attached with two screws rather large maybe 6mm and they go through the receiver. "more photos that were blurry".

I'm assuming the heads were milled off ? As they can barely be see on the exterior. The base was soldered and screwed to the receiver. See photo.

mauser99 · Mar 25, 2014

bolt.

The bolt is an Astrawerke item as most of the late ce44's are. The safety is un-modified and I see no reason why it needs to be. The scope doesn't even come close to interfering with the safety operation.

As Dave mentioned very few JPS assembled lsr's have the long key safety most have a milled down standard safety.

Dave Roberts · Mar 25, 2014

Absolut said:
Great to now see a rifle in detail, not only the greyscale pictures from Roberts book. I also often kept wondering about the strange front sight the rifle in Roberts book has. K.Z.F. is sometimes translated as "Karabiner ZielFernrohr", so an official designation for the K98k rifle. Sounds logical, but of course cannot be confirmed.

Dave, would you let me know to what you refer with "correct letter block" - were these swept back snipers all in a specific letter block? That would make it easy to identify fakes!

One thing I noticed while looking at the pictures, the scope mount is renumbered. If you look closely, you can see a "15" below the "17". And just since I'm curious how they really managed to mount the scope rail: did they also solder the base to the rifle, or is it really only held in place by two pins? It just sounds too little with only the two pins ..

One last question: how much did you pay for that rifle? Just to give me an idea on those (also via PM if you don't want to post it here).

To the BEST of my Knowledge all the known Originals or those thought to be Originals are from the U block letter suffix . That said I am sure You will find some FAKES , REPROS that used Sauer Rifles from this letter block . The Number on the outer right side of the Mount that Wayne mentioned is not same as Rifles 399u Ser#, I respectfully disagree with his thinking on that as it is 4 Digits and no suffix. This is a Puzzling part of that mystery # . I know of one other Swept Back with similar number on outer side of Mount Scope is also KZF marked and this particular Mount & Scope is Pictured in Senich but pic is blurry . On this particular Swept Back I mention Mount and Base have same 2 digit Number for Mount & Base .You can find similar numbering used on SSR Mounts , it is likely for Identifying Parts for one Mount .

Hercules · Mar 25, 2014

Nice

Wow! This is the only one of these I have seen good photos of. I would of thought it would have had a sniper type safety, but I guess you never know. Thanks for posting.

Brian

Absolut · Mar 26, 2014

Regarding the pins: you said that these were screws with their heads cut off. Is the diameter of these on the inside (where they go into the receiver) of a smaller diameter? So that maybe just the screw head was filed flat that there was no more slot? Just an idea ..

The rifle in Robert Spielauers book is also #344 u (if I remember correctly, however also in the #300 range), so together with the other rifle Dave mentioned they are all in the #3XX serial range and all U block. That would make it rather easy to determine, since then there would only be 100 rifles left which can be swept back snipers (or even not more than 1000 rifles, if you take all the three digit u block rifles). Given that, and the rarity of CE rifles in general doing an exact fake is rather impossible.

mauser99 · Mar 26, 2014

Hercules said:
Wow! This is the only one of these I have seen good photos of. I would of thought it would have had a sniper type safety, but I guess you never know. Thanks for posting.

Brian

1] there Is no need for it. The scope doesn't interfere with the safety
2] the majority of JPS lsr's don't even have long key safeties.
3] were the snipers safeties added to those other rifles to enhance them ?

I feel the majority of the long key safeties were supplied to gustloff were who made most of the LSR snipers.

Hercules · Mar 26, 2014

Safety

mauser99 said:
1] there Is no need for it. The scope doesn't interfere with the safety
2] the majority of JPS lsr's don't even have long key safeties.
3] were the snipers safeties added to those other rifles to enhance them ?

I feel the majority of the long key safeties were supplied to gustloff were who made most of the LSR snipers.

My CE LSR has the short flat safety and not the key. Not saying your rifle is wrong, just not what I expected. As far as enhancement. The late war CE LSR's have a sniper safety, but not necessarily a checkered butt plate. So, congrats on your find.

mauser99 · Mar 26, 2014

Hercules said:
My CE LSR has the short flat safety and not the key. Not saying your rifle is wrong, just not what I expected. As far as enhancement. The late war CE LSR's have a sniper safety, but not necessarily a checkered butt plate. So, congrats on your find.

I know what you are asking and pointing out.

The facts are the facts.. How many JPS lsr's have the long key safety.. Very few.

As for this rig the scope sits off to the side more and the small Zf4 scope doesn't impede the safety function enough to have to shorten it.

These are almost experimental @ best and I'm sure troop trials were done and Possibly some field used.
I think all observed are flat new. One was noted as being semi finished. "trusted source".

Stana · Mar 26, 2014

Congratulation :thumbsup:

Nice find
Stan

ZF41 K98k · Mar 26, 2014

It is very nice!!! Please could you post some pics of it with the scope attached?? I really like it!! :thumbsup:

Turbo Archie · Mar 26, 2014

Kinda hard to fake the condition of that rifle.

Very nice!!!

:hail:

...

mauser99 · Mar 26, 2014

mount

the owner sent me some pic's of the front of the mount. Of note. the lever has 'no' fest or lose on it. The lever is different than a g43 lever.

CE 44 SWEPT BACK SNIPER W/specially marked zf4 scope..

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