Third Party Press
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Thread: Defining what constitutes a "Third Reich Training Rifle"

  1. #1
    Moderator mauser22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ozarks
    Posts
    466

    Default Defining what constitutes a "Third Reich Training Rifle"

    What constitutes a “Third Reich - Training Rifle?”

    Controversy, debate and confusion have always ruled regarding what constitutes a “German Trainer”. Not all collectors are congruent on that issue.

    I would state it as:

    “A .22 rimfire, 4mm or air rifle developed to resemble the standard German Service Rifle as much as possible and incorporating a hand guard and full length stock.”

    Hitler’s influence and priority for marksmanship training of youths and the paramilitary SA resulted in that market becoming increasingly lucrative as he came to power in 1933. Many models of small caliber cartridge rifles had been developed emulating the Gewehr 98 prior to that. In some cases, such as the Gewehr style 4mm Zimmerschutzen rifles, this followed on the heels of the Treaty of Versailles and was to make use of deactivated infantry rifles. But as Hitler came to power in 1933 a well spring of models evolved from German Manufacturers seeking to supply the demands of the NAZI SA shooting program. By 1934, Hitler had abolished the Deutches Schutzen Verbund and made the SA responsible for all marksmanship training in the Reich. Simson, ERMA, GECO, Langehan, Frankenscholss, Kaba, Paatz, Anschutz and others had all produced in limited quantity full stocked .22 rifles to resemble the Gewher 98.

    Clearly this was a competitive venture instigated by the NAZI party’s demand for training rifles.

    As Mauser Oberndorf ultimately secured the pattern for the new service rifle (K98K based on the Standard Modell Carbine) that firm’s miniaturized 98 action was ultimately directed to be the “standard” design. Other models by other makers continued to be produced and utilized as trainers. But ultimately 16 diffferent firms produced the Mauser design. Evidence that the War Office was involved in the proliferation of the Mauser Deutches Sportmodell is noted in the order/offer records recently brought to light in Jon Speed’s “Mauser Archive” Wooden and aluminum models were procured by the German Military in November 1933. In is interesting in this reference that the entire records for 1934 were omitted and likely were destroyed as they would have contained significant evidence that Germany was in fact rearming in violation of the Treaty of Versailles and no doubt tooling, blueprints and drawings for the DSM 34 would have been noted going to the 16 firms that ultimately produced the guns at the direction of the new NAZI government.

    Later in 1938 there is now significant evidence that the SA directed the multi-firm involvement in the development and production of the KKW.

    And so from this collector’s perspective, there are but two “standardized” Third Reich Training Rifles. The DSM 34 and the KKW. However many other models by the same firms producing those and other models by many makers do constitute a “trainer” as they were built with full stocks, in most cases hand guards and do emulate the K98K.

    This results in much debate and varied opinions among collectors and historians regarding what is, and what is not a “Third Reich Training Rifle”. I suspect it will remain so.

    To sort that out, one must consider the above and look to period literature. The manufacturers catalogs and prospectus aid to a great extent. Here too, though, the issue remains cloudy as even the “standardized” Deutches Sportmodell and Klein Kaliber Wehrsport Gewehr were proofed commercially and sold by retail firms to suppress suspicion and camouflage the Third Reich’s very active re-armament and marksmanship programs subsequent to 1933.

    But in most cases, these catalogs and other documents clearly indicate that “other” sporting and target types produced between 1933 and the end of WWII, were intended for use as hunting, sport shooting and target rifles.

    Adding to the confusion many of the sporting types utilize a tangent rear sight, and in the case of the Mauser B series sporting and target rifles the same miniature 98 action. Other sporting models by other firms also used a wing safety typical of the 98 action. This results in such models often referred to as “trainers”.

    Sporters as Trainers

    Another significant fact further adds to the confusion. Any .22, 4mm, or air rifle available in the Reich during that same period was very likely pressed into service as a “training rifle”.

    This is evidenced in period photographs of marksmanship training by the SA and the many property marked examples of sporting and target rifles found. Just as was true of combat weapons, there were never enough rifles to meet the demand. Consequently, to say that any German small caliber rifle from that period of history was not a trainer, is unlikely and inconclusive.


    There's my take on it, and I might add many other older collectors basically operate from that perspective. Some do not collect any of the "sporting types" unless they bear property markings for NAZI organizations (many do).

    For the purposes of research and information sharing, however, I believe this forum should welcome the presentation and discussion of any 4mm, Luftgewehr, or .22 caliber rifle made in or used in Germany or the occupied territories prior to May 1945.

    As always, I encourage comments, discussion and debate. Others opinions are welcome and appreciated.
    Good Collecting!!!!
    Last edited by mauser22; 01-11-2011 at 04:21 PM. Reason: spelling, typos, brain farts

  2. #2
    Moderator mauser99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    mass. u.s.a.
    Posts
    3,323

    Default Surgeon generals warning !!!

    Thanks for the clearing that up..Basicly every single shot german 22 is being sold as a training rifle. Or hitler youth trainer..Not the case.



    Now the warning....Veiwing this forum may cause outbreaks of "german traineritis" !!!

  3. #3
    Moderator mauser22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ozarks
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Not sure I cleared anything up there 99!

    But for my part I want to see any German .22, 4mm, or air gun made prior to May 1945.

    What do you think?

  4. #4
    Moderator mauser99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    mass. u.s.a.
    Posts
    3,323

    Default forum rules

    Jim, I am not against anyone posting any german small bore rifle of intrest. I think anything is worth disscussing and posting as long as its not to far fetched. Anyway we can delete what we dont want to see. I was just making an observation that any german 22 is somehow being sold as a "trainer" or Hitler youth trainer on every web-sight or auction I come across. We know this is not the case but, As you mention training rifles as with service rifles were in much demand and of course commercial .22's were used in absense of true trainers. Who are we to say that one such rifle was or wasnt used as a trainer in it's past life. Other than paramiltiary markings that adorn such rifles but not all are the only clues to which "club" or association used said rifle and if not marked with anything the rifle should be omitted form the forum? I really dont think so. We just need to keep it from getting watered down if it did with these type of things. I really don't see it becoming a problem. I also want guys to feel free to ask questions about any german 22 from the period. We are here to help and be helped ourselves in some cases. I for one would love to see someone post a real Mauser Mod45german .22 in german trim if one does exist. I have only seen a french assembled rifle with the Mauser banner and Mod45 present.

  5. #5
    Moderator mauser22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ozarks
    Posts
    466

    Default Perhaps this then....?

    I was pondering just what you said. Edit them out if not property marked or other provenance with connection to use as a trainer.

    And certainly, the tiny "boys rifle types", garden guns, floberts, etc, were not desireable as "trainers"

    We all have seen significant photographic evidence however that the target, and heavier sporters, (particularly anything with a tangent sight and wing safety" were in fact used for marksmanship training. Make them a trainer?
    NO not in my opinion.

    Such as the case with Pre War sporters with Scopes attached pressed into service as "sniper rifles", are they snipers?

    Let's wool this around some and hope to have input from others.

    Down the road a sticky post of any "sporters" or "target rifles" property marked by NAZI organizations (there are many) could become a sticky post for putting up photos.

    So, I don't perceive that we have any "rule" on that as it stands right now and you and I will just have to police it.

    Yeah, that's what you said, wasn't it?

  6. #6
    Moderator mauser99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    mass. u.s.a.
    Posts
    3,323

    Talking Our forum

    One thing the guys "Bruce and Mike" are is easy going. I want this to be a place like the other forums where people can feel free to post anything they feel may fit the criteria of this forum. We as Mods can do what we feel is nessisary with the post after it's run its course as well. There is nothing worse than a forum with a bunch of dead threads that go no where or don't pertain to anything of interest. Threads here "we hope" will be here for the long haul and won't be lost to a server crash or the likes. Thats one reason for this new forum. So far its a smaller group and Topics are good and the talk is getting somewhere. As time goes on i'm sure we will grow. I've already gone to gunboards and have given heads up to guys I respect and want here. I knew you were going to give a shout to Joew.& I may of beat you to it. Right off the bat he has added a nice amout of info already.I plan to give Raul a jingle as well. As you see I want whats best for "our forum" and Like I said "I want to make it the place to be on the web". I've never been a Mod nor have you from what I've gathered from you posts. So,lets have fun with this. It's a hobby for me and that means fun. When it feels like work thats the time to walk away. You have my utmost respect for what you know and have taken the time to learn..

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    230

    Default Dsm34

    Jim, your description of the information Speed found and placed in his Archives book is quite interesting. I find the "missing" information fascinating. Admittedly a bit late at this, but I must get that book.

    I was looking again last night at the DSM chapter in his Mauser .22 book and I could not a correlation to the term DSM 34. I am not aware if you had input into that chapter with Speed. But, what is the historical connection to 1934 to use the term DSM 34. It was apparently coined by US collectors? I have always used it because that is what collectors always called them. The actual German term is Deutsche Sport Modell, isn't it. There is discussion of a Deutsche Sport Modell in the 1932 Akah catalog. Did 1934 originate from the data of Mauser's patent?

  8. #8
    Moderator mauser22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ozarks
    Posts
    466

    Default Dsm34

    Joe the 1934 primarily only mattered in house at Mauser Oberndorf as reference drawings to the first variation of Deutsches Sportmodell all annotate DSM34 for that first variation.

    In marketing particularly among the other makers, the rifle was simply the Deutsches Sportmodell (both variations).

    The second variation is in fact the DSM36. Again the only place that mattered was in the drawings and in house at Mauser Oberndorf.

    Now I ask you to bear with me. This will be a future post and likely sticky. I spent considerable time on the phone today with Jon Speed and the documents and drawings that will enable me to lay that out are forthcoming.

    Please don't jump to any conclusions or make any assumptions until I can put that together. I would rather be late and correct as possible than further add to the confusion on that.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    230

    Default

    I will look forward to that post.

    As to the other manufacturers using the term "Deutsche Sportmodell", I find it amazing that Mauser trademarked that precise term with a D.R.G.M. The other makers must have paid license fees to produce the guns and use the term.

    But curiously enough, I found Akah using the term in their 1932 catalog, indicating several makers. I suppose this was the pre-1934 production of military style .22 rifles that Speed mentioned in the opening of his chapter on the DSM.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    1

    Default A Modifire DSM 34

    Quote Originally Posted by mauser22 View Post
    What constitutes a “Third Reich - Training Rifle?”

    Controversy, debate and confusion have always ruled regarding what constitutes a “German Trainer”. Not all collectors are congruent on that issue.

    I would state it as:

    “A .22 rimfire, 4mm or air rifle developed to resemble the standard German Service Rifle as much as possible and incorporating a hand guard and full length stock.”

    Hitler’s influence and priority for marksmanship training of youths and the paramilitary SA resulted in that market becoming increasingly lucrative as he came to power in 1933. Many models of small caliber cartridge rifles had been developed emulating the Gewehr 98 prior to that. In some cases, such as the Gewehr style 4mm Zimmerschutzen rifles, this followed on the heels of the Treaty of Versailles and was to make use of deactivated infantry rifles. But as Hitler came to power in 1933 a well spring of models evolved from German Manufacturers seeking to supply the demands of the NAZI SA shooting program. By 1934, Hitler had abolished the Deutches Schutzen Verbund and made the SA responsible for all marksmanship training in the Reich. Simson, ERMA, GECO, Langehan, Frankenscholss, Kaba, Paatz, Anschutz and others had all produced in limited quantity full stocked .22 rifles to resemble the Gewher 98.

    Clearly this was a competitive venture instigated by the NAZI party’s demand for training rifles.

    As Mauser Oberndorf ultimately secured the pattern for the new service rifle (K98K based on the Standard Modell Carbine) that firm’s miniaturized 98 action was ultimately directed to be the “standard” design. Other models by other makers continued to be produced and utilized as trainers. But ultimately 16 diffferent firms produced the Mauser design. Evidence that the War Office was involved in the proliferation of the Mauser Deutches Sportmodell is noted in the order/offer records recently brought to light in Jon Speed’s “Mauser Archive” Wooden and aluminum models were procured by the German Military in November 1933. In is interesting in this reference that the entire records for 1934 were omitted and likely were destroyed as they would have contained significant evidence that Germany was in fact rearming in violation of the Treaty of Versailles and no doubt tooling, blueprints and drawings for the DSM 34 would have been noted going to the 16 firms that ultimately produced the guns at the direction of the new NAZI government.

    Later in 1938 there is now significant evidence that the SA directed the multi-firm involvement in the development and production of the KKW.

    And so from this collector’s perspective, there are but two “standardized” Third Reich Training Rifles. The DSM 34 and the KKW. However many other models by the same firms producing those and other models by many makers do constitute a “trainer” as they were built with full stocks, in most cases hand guards and do emulate the K98K.

    This results in much debate and varied opinions among collectors and historians regarding what is, and what is not a “Third Reich Training Rifle”. I suspect it will remain so.

    To sort that out, one must consider the above and look to period literature. The manufacturers catalogs and prospectus aid to a great extent. Here too, though, the issue remains cloudy as even the “standardized” Deutches Sportmodell and Klein Kaliber Wehrsport Gewehr were proofed commercially and sold by retail firms to suppress suspicion and camouflage the Third Reich’s very active re-armament and marksmanship programs subsequent to 1933.

    But in most cases, these catalogs and other documents clearly indicate that “other” sporting and target types produced between 1933 and the end of WWII, were intended for use as hunting, sport shooting and target rifles.

    Adding to the confusion many of the sporting types utilize a tangent rear sight, and in the case of the Mauser B series sporting and target rifles the same miniature 98 action. Other sporting models by other firms also used a wing safety typical of the 98 action. This results in such models often referred to as “trainers”.

    Sporters as Trainers

    Another significant fact further adds to the confusion. Any .22, 4mm, or air rifle available in the Reich during that same period was very likely pressed into service as a “training rifle”.

    This is evidenced in period photographs of marksmanship training by the SA and the many property marked examples of sporting and target rifles found. Just as was true of combat weapons, there were never enough rifles to meet the demand. Consequently, to say that any German small caliber rifle from that period of history was not a trainer, is unlikely and inconclusive.


    There's my take on it, and I might add many other older collectors basically operate from that perspective. Some do not collect any of the "sporting types" unless they bear property markings for NAZI organizations (many do).

    For the purposes of research and information sharing, however, I believe this forum should welcome the presentation and discussion of any 4mm, Luftgewehr, or .22 caliber rifle made in or used in Germany or the occupied territories prior to May 1945.

    As always, I encourage comments, discussion and debate. Others opinions are welcome and appreciated.
    Good Collecting!!!!


    Here's a DSM 34b with a modified stock. It seems to be different in that the stock never had a cleaning rod and and the rifle has a floating bbl for improved accuracy.

    mauser .22 008.JPGmauser KKW 001.JPG

    Is this one unique?

    Thanks
    Roger

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •