Another Woodwork Normandy

nirvana said:

Camo helmets and any nazi badge/medal worth more than $50: I just stay away. I have no idea what the hell im doing, and I would just lose money. That so many experienced people can have a vigorous debate over this helmet tells me stay in the shallow end until I know better.

Click to expand...

I'm in total agreement with Nirvana here; but have really enjoyed reading this thread! In my totally ignorant view, I like the helmet! I've tried to look very closely at the helmet, it's paint, it's patterns, the flow, the chips, the varies worn areas, the edges, etc. I've read all of the post, and weighed all views from all of you. Tried to learn from the expertise. What I've learned is to stay away from helmets! The reason I like the helmet is because of how the paint and wear looks-it's consistency, I also wondered, and this would be if the helmet is original, is if this could have been an Africa Corp helmet? There appears to be the correct green base paint (as also seen on the inside of the helmet), then the desert tan color. Then, the other colors added. Don't need to have my questions ridiculed here; as stated, I don't really know squat here- just voicing observations, and trying to learn. The differing opinions here does make me wonder thou; that someone potentially list something as authentic, genuine, hundred per cent correct, how someone else, someone who is a supposed expert, can voice their opinion and say that what you have is fake.

My understanding of the 'Normandy' helmet camo scheme is that it was composed of three RAL colors, the same that were used on vehicles. The RAL colors were standardized, factory produced colors.

http://www.stugiii.com/germanvehiclecamouflage.html

Three Color Disruptive: February 1943 – Vehicles were painted with a base coat of dark yellow (Dunkelgelb )RAL 7028. Over this, stripes of olive-green (Olivgrün RAL 6003) and red-brown (Rotbraun RAL 8017) were applied by the maintenance sections and could be varried according to the terrain.

Many of the 'questionable' Normandy camo helmets I have seen have colors mimicking the 3 color RAL scheme, but they don't seem to get the shades quite right. The RAL 8017 red-brown seems to be especially difficult to correctly mix from scratch. If you look at the "red-brown" on these helmets, you will see a wide variety ranging from red, to orange, to burgundy.

http://www.atomicempire.com/item.aspx?item=106338&gclid=CJ2M5pq728cCFUiFfgodzigMDQ

If you stop and think about it, either the helmets were spray painted in the 3 RAL colors at the unit level 'Normandies' (standardized colors) or the trooper used other paint from whatever sources.

Why would a trooper attempt to mimic RAL colors if he didn't have them? What would be the purpose of doing that?

The mimicking of RAL colors is something that fakers do.

BTT.... for the newer members to see M45 has been at this for some time.

Rob pulls camo from woodwork himself you see what happens.. M45 is right and all else is wrong...

All helmets must show wear and the same patterns old paint must show the same about of age no matter the storage conditions.

mauser99 said:

BTT.... for the newer members to see M45 has been at this for some time.

Rob pulls camo from woodwork himself you see what happens.. M45 is right and all else is wrong...

All helmets must show wear and the same patterns old paint must show the same about of age no matter the storage conditions.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a broken next record.

M45 said:

So, is this helmet real or fake? I can't say for certain. I deal in probabilities and possibilities. I examine all of the individual fine details and come to an overall conclusion.

Click to expand...

mcorioles said:

Sounds like a broken next record.

Click to expand...

and you dont? theres enough delusion from one person on this forum, i'm not sure theres room for another.

Bigdibbs88 said:

and you dont? theres enough delusion from one person on this forum, i'm not sure theres room for another.

Click to expand...

Show my broken record posts. You can't

Some of you crack me up.

You have a guy M45 who owns NO camos but you guys defend him.

He's reckless with other people's property.

Go look at GHW Im there and very open to criticism as everyone there will tell you.

When those people have actual points.

mcorioles said:

Show my broken record posts. You can't

Some of you crack me up.

You have a guy M45 who owns NO camos but you guys defend him.

He's reckless with other people's property.

Go look at GHW Im there and very open to criticism as everyone there will tell you.

When those people have actual points.

Click to expand...

I dont defend M45 at all In fact if you read the other thread we are quite at odds on several points.

Bigdibbs88 said:

I dont defend M45 at all In fact if you read the other thread we are quite at odds on several points.

Click to expand...

Where is my delusion or broken record posts?m

Sorry, disregard I just read your PM.

I have no dog in this fight, and I know squat about WW2 german camo helmets. I'm more of a WW1 guy. I do know a little about German WW2 tanks and their camouflage.
The paints were issued in the field as a thick paste, and could be thinned with water, gasoline, and kerosene. Depending on how they were thinned, the resulting colors could vary wildly. The red brown could be anything from a light brick red to a dark chocolate. The olive green could range from a light pea green to very dark olive. The pastes were standardized, but the colors as applied ended up being anything but. Therefore I feel it would be a mistake to judge a helmet strictly by the colors.
Whe I was a kid in the sixties I lived in Levittown NY, the original suburb. Most of my neighbors and friends' fathers were vets. They all had stuff. Lugers, P38s, Nazi daggers, flags, shoeboxes full of German medals and badges, and yes, helmets. Amid all that stuff, I never saw a camo helmet. Obviously they exist, but I would guess that 90% of what we see today are fakes.
Steve

M45 said:

My understanding of the 'Normandy' helmet camo scheme is that it was composed of three RAL colors, the same that were used on vehicles. The RAL colors were standardized, factory produced colors.

http://www.stugiii.com/germanvehiclecamouflage.html

Three Color Disruptive: February 1943 – Vehicles were painted with a base coat of dark yellow (Dunkelgelb )RAL 7028. Over this, stripes of olive-green (Olivgrün RAL 6003) and red-brown (Rotbraun RAL 8017) were applied by the maintenance sections and could be varried according to the terrain.

Many of the 'questionable' Normandy camo helmets I have seen have colors mimicking the 3 color RAL scheme, but they don't seem to get the shades quite right. The RAL 8017 red-brown seems to be especially difficult to correctly mix from scratch. If you look at the "red-brown" on these helmets, you will see a wide variety ranging from red, to orange, to burgundy.

http://www.atomicempire.com/item.aspx?item=106338&gclid=CJ2M5pq728cCFUiFfgodzigMDQ

If you stop and think about it, either the helmets were spray painted in the 3 RAL colors at the unit level 'Normandies' (standardized colors) or the trooper used other paint from whatever sources.

Why would a trooper attempt to mimic RAL colors if he didn't have them? What would be the purpose of doing that?

The mimicking of RAL colors is something that fakers do.

Click to expand...

ottodog8 said:

I have no dog in this fight, and I know squat about WW2 german camo helmets. I'm more of a WW1 guy. I do know a little about German WW2 tanks and their camouflage.
The paints were issued in the field as a thick paste, and could be thinned with water, gasoline, and kerosene. Depending on how they were thinned, the resulting colors could vary wildly. The red brown could be anything from a light brick red to a dark chocolate. The olive green could range from a light pea green to very dark olive. The pastes were standardized, but the colors as applied ended up being anything but. Therefore I feel it would be a mistake to judge a helmet strictly by the colors.
Whe I was a kid in the sixties I lived in Levittown NY, the original suburb. Most of my neighbors and friends' fathers were vets. They all had stuff. Lugers, P38s, Nazi daggers, flags, shoeboxes full of German medals and badges, and yes, helmets. Amid all that stuff, I never saw a camo helmet. Obviously they exist, but I would guess that 90% of what we see today are fakes.
Steve

Click to expand...

..............................

This stuff drives me nuts!

No offense to the guy that thinks 90% of camos are fake.

1. We all know camos weren't desirable War trophies.Because why would a lot if them dig for decals?
And yes I know a lot of collectors back then did the same.Same with wire removal,they weren't worried about collectibility nor preserving history.

2. So it would make sense to see helmets in your neighborhood not camoed .

3. You can't come to some arbitrary conclusion that 90% of camos are fake from your singular experience.

mcorioles said:

This stuff drives me nuts!

No offense to the guy that thinks 90% of camos are fake.

1. We all know camos weren't desirable War trophies.Because why would a lot if them dig for decals?
And yes I know a lot of collectors back then did the same.Same with wire removal,they weren't worried about collectibility nor preserving history.

2. So it would make sense to see helmets in your neighborhood not camoed .

3. You can't come to some arbitrary conclusion that 90% of camos are fake from your singular experience.

Click to expand...

I believe that my rule was 85% and I stand behind it as a general rule in the universe of ALL "camos" available for sale. Of course, due to participant sophistication there will obviously be a higher percentage of originals displayed on a forum dedicated to such things, just as there are a higher percentage of original K98ks displayed here than at a funshow or on the internets generally. Please go watch the 1941 Our Gang Little Rascals episode, "Baby Blues" for statistical enlightenment on random selection vs. biased selection in statistical analysis.