Third Party Press

DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

Hi guys,

I think the discussion has been somewhat derailed here the last couple of pages. Yes, Doug did leave in a strange way by deleting everything he ever wrote on GHW2 which I too find peculiar. However, he has been fighting to expose the shampain ruin fraud, and his efforts last fall set the whole exposure in motion. It might not happened if not Doug decided to out the decal by a careful analysis.

Now, the faker is also exposed in this fraud. Recently, someone who knows him outed Eric Dolin on the new thread on GHW2. It will be interesting how this plays out, as he also gives testimony that Ken N. And Karl Kithier has know the shampain ruin humper for a very long time. http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52045-the-champagne-rune-fraud/page-4?

Regards,
Rune
 
tjg79 said:
OK, here's the proof that Doug B didn't say that there was "plenty of period photographic evidence" of the C-SS lid. He was saying that there was plenty of period photographic evidence of the decaled M42 SS lid.
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It IS like a game of table tennis ! Ohhhh, I see. He was just saying that there was plenty of period photographic evidence of DECALED M42 SS lids ...... like "the probable private contract Champagne decal which is also common on hkp M42 helmets as well."



As Ty has stated there are many M42 SS decaled helmets, and plenty of period photographic evidence to support this. M42 models....with the probable private contract Champagne decal which is also common on hkp M42 helmets as well.



OK, he is referring to DECALED M42 SS lids that have plenty of period photographic evidence, and then adds the probable private purchase CHAMPAGNE DECAL among these.

First of all, he is referring to the C-SS spray painted forgery as a DECAL once again (a false statement).

Second, he mentions the CHAMPAGNE DECAL in the same context as other M42 SS helmets, strongly suggesting if not outright saying that C-SS is ALSO found in period photos (false once again).


If it was never his intention to add the CHAMPAGNE DECAL in the same context as other M42 SS helmets with plenty of period photographic evidence, he should have made a clear exception to C-SS like this:

"CHAMPAGNE DECALED M42s DO NOT have any period photographic evidence to support them whatsoever, contrary to all of the other m42 SS lids I mentioned."


And don't tell me that someone else should have asked for more clarification. HE made the statement, whether directly or indirectly, strongly suggesting that C-SS was found in period photographs.


I'm sure that courts deal with this all of the time, holding people accountable for their somewhat veiled statements that were intended by the speaker to be understood to mean something in the hopes that they would not be held accountable later because they did not make the statement with absolute clarity (as you, tjg are demanding). The courts are not stupid.



I think DougB's quote is appropriate here.


I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - DougB


According to this, we only THINK we know what DougB actually said.
 
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Peiper said:
Hi guys,

I think the discussion has been somewhat derailed here the last couple of pages. Yes, Doug did leave in a strange way by deleting everything he ever wrote on GHW2 which I too find peculiar. However, he has been fighting to expose the shampain ruin fraud, and his efforts last fall set the whole exposure in motion. It might not happened if not Doug decided to out the decal by a careful analysis.

Regards,
Rune
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(emphasis mine)


It might not happened if not Doug decided to out the decal by a careful analysis.

As you put it, it sounds like a clear planned tactical move by DougB to attempt save his crumbling credibility. He made a conscious decision all of those years to promote C-SS as authentic despite no concrete evidence whatsoever that it actually was authentic. He was pointing to Kelly H.'s books but those were only based on Kelly's personal opinions that also lacked any concrete evidence whatsoever.

So you have bull$hit piled on top of more bull$hit, the end result being an absolute mess (no surprise there).

Then you have DougB deciding to out C-SS by careful analysis only after he purchased the lot# book and saw that the C-SS game was over.
 
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Peiper is being diplomatic and I agree with him. I think forward progress is identifying and understanding the supply chain from airbrush artist to buyer and what the COA issuer(s) knew and when.
 
I think Doug B came to the realization that all the bigwigs in lid collecting are crooked. He knows Kelly Hicks is crooked. If all the key players are crooked, like lid book authors, why stay in that hobby.
 
tjg79 said:
I think Doug B came to the realization that all the bigwigs in lid collecting are crooked. He knows Kelly Hicks is crooked. If all the key players are crooked, like lid book authors, why stay in that hobby.
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I believe you are correct. My opinion, for what its worth, is that having realized slowly that he had been misled by the books and the bigwigs into also believing and then defending these fraudulent pieces he simply wanted out. I think he was grossly embarrassed that he had been conned and had taken part in defending bad items. Sort of a self defense mechanism and having deleted all his posts and departed he no longer has to directly answer how and why he was duped. To me this makes more sense that some grand conspiracy theory. In any case, that's just my opinion and one may take it or leave it.
 
tjg79 said:
I really don't have a theory. I just accept what Doug B explained unless I see something that would cause me to question that explanation. I haven't seen anything to cause me to question Doug B's explanation. I haven't seen anything to indicate that Kelly Hicks and Doug B knew the C-SS lids were fake spray-jobs prior to or after the release of your lot number study. I think they should have taken a closer look at the C-SS lid after your lot number study was released. And, Yes, I think the lid gurus are fallible.
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Alright, let's take you position to its logical conclusion. Kelly and DougB were fooled by C-SS like we all were until destructive testing was performed that was the "clincher" to out C-SS as a forgery. Their excuse for being fooled (and indeed probably anyone who wants to use it) was that destructive testing had only been done/revealed circa 11/2015. So we have effectively absolved Kelly and DougB of all of their "C-SS sins".

Who then do we turn to for culpability ?

"Couriers" brought German ND helmets to E.D. (not a crime unless they were speeding). E.D. painted up said helmets with C-SS (it is not a crime to paint German helmets, with flowers, hearts, peace signs, camo or C-SS as long as you own the helmets or the owners have approved of you doing so). Helmets are then returned to owners after paying a nominal fee for the service (once again, not a crime unless they are being sold as originals at that time - fraud).

At this point, we still have no culpability as I see it, as we have already absolved Kelly and DougB of their "sins".

Owners of newly painted C-SS are probably dealers, private collectors, friends, sellers, militaria shop owners, etc... Likely due to their actions, C-SS begins appearing at collector to collector sales, at militaria shows, shops, dealers ads, eventually online, and eventually on forums (such as WAF on or about 2004) as "originals" and for sale for original prices. Some of these "acquire" vet provenance, paperwork, COA's and ownership history.

Kelly begins gradually increasing C-SS in his later books with highly detailed descriptions and photos that claim authenticity. He offers COA guarantees for his opinions.

DougB begins strongly promoting C-SS on forums (WAF, GHW1, WRF) as "textbook" Decals (found in Kelly's books) and touting XRFacts as "scientific proof" of authenticity in the beginning.

DougB establishes himself as an SS helmet authority by WOW-ing us with his "wall o helmets" (C-SS strangely absent) and proving his expertise and building trust.

C-SS with COAs begins flying off of Kelly's shelves.


I estimate conservatively that the C-SS fraud could exceed $1 million ($5000 average price X 200 units estimated)

So we have a massive fraud with dozens or hundreds of victims, but no suspects. Nearly everyone (dealers, sellers, websites, authors, experts) was fooled by C-SS until destructive testing was the "clincher" that proved it fake.

The "creators" are not guilty unless they knowingly sold them as authentic - simply manufacturing them was not a crime in itself.
 
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M45 said:
Alright, let's take you position to its logical conclusion. Kelly and DougB were fooled by C-SS like we all were until destructive testing was performed that was the "clincher" to out C-SS as a forgery. Their excuse for being fooled (and indeed probably anyone who wants to use it) was that destructive testing had only been done/revealed circa 11/2015. So we have effectively absolved Kelly and DougB of all of their "C-SS sins".

Who then do we turn to for culpability ?

"Couriers" brought German ND helmets to E.D. (not a crime unless they were speeding). E.D. painted up said helmets with C-SS (it is not a crime to paint German helmets, with flowers, hearts, peace signs, camo or C-SS as long as you own the helmets or the owners have approved of you doing so). Helmets are then returned to owners after paying a nominal fee for the service (once again, not a crime unless they are being sold as originals at that time - fraud).

At this point, we still have no culpability as I see it, as we have already absolved Kelly and DougB of their "sins".

Owners of newly painted C-SS are probably dealers, private collectors, friends, sellers, militaria shop owners, etc... Likely due to their actions, C-SS begins appearing at collector to collector sales, at militaria shows, shops, dealers ads, eventually online, and eventually on forums (such as WAF on or about 2004) as "originals" and for sale for original prices. Some of these "acquire" vet provenance, paperwork, COA's and ownership history.

Kelly beings gradually increasing C-SS in his later books with highly detailed descriptions and photos that claim authenticity. He offers COA guarantees for his opinions.

DougB begins strongly promoting C-SS on forums (WAF, GHW1, WRF) as "textbook" Decals (found in Kelly's books) and touting XRFacts as "scientific proof" of authenticity in the beginning.

DougB establishes himself as an SS helmet authority by WOW-ing us with his "wall o helmets" (C-SS strangely absent) and proving his expertise and building trust.

C-SS with COAs begins flying off of Kelly's shelves.


I estimate conservatively that the C-SS fraud could exceed $1 million ($5000 average price X 200 units estimated)

So we have a massive fraud with dozens or hundreds of victims, but no suspects. Nearly everyone (dealers, sellers, websites, authors, experts) was fooled by C-SS until destructive testing was the "clincher" that proved it fake.

The "creators" are not guilty unless they knowingly sold them as authentic - simply manufacturing them was not a crime in itself.
Click to expand...

If the lid collecting community would get their act together and start collecting the C-SS lid chain of custody data, we could figure this out. However, I don't have much confidence in the lid collecting community.

We do know the conduit for a 70s vintage C-SS lid from a Kelly Hicks' story. He bought one from a "vet" with a story at a show. I suspect that's the conduit. If that's the case, Kelly Hicks is just as gullible as most lid collectors. That Hicks story is posted earlier in this thread.

Kelly Hicks thought the C-SS lid was legit, because he bought his first one from a "vet" with a story at a show. Therefore, he featured the C-SS lid in his lid picture books. Hicks was negligent as an author for not confirming the legitimacy of this very different SS lid. I'm sure he's not the only lid guru collector that thought they were correct. It seems most lid collectors accepted the C-SS lid as legit. This all happened before the internet. It appears that other lid gurus likely knew the C-SS lid was a fake and said nothing. That's the main problem with the lid collecting community in my opinion.
 
tjg79 said:
If the lid collecting community would get their act together and start collecting the C-SS lid chain of custody data, we could figure this out. However, I don't have much confidence in the lid collecting community.
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Chain of custody investigation would flesh out the truth and the players. Go to WAF and suggest that and watch how the waftarded hiss and spit like D-list actors auditioning for a B-movie vampire flick. IMHO, that place is an official parody of a real forum.
 
That sounds like it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to find out everyone who had actually handled C-SS originating from E.D. But suppose you do that and go to a judge with your information.

One after the other they say under oath that they believed C-SS to be authentic and were fooled just like the "experts". E.D. and couriers say they were just providing a service to friends and had never intended that their work be sold as authentic.

The judge thinks for a minute and says, "Caveat Emptor !" Buyer beware ! The buyer accepts full responsibility for knowing what they are buying. That responsibility cannot be thrown on to someone else's shoulders. If anyone had bothered to do any actual research instead of simply believing Kelly's books or DougB's vettings they would have found no concrete evidence whatsoever to suggest that C-SS had ever existed during the Third Reich period.

That failure of collectors to do their own research is their own fault, therefore the resulting loss of capital is their own fault as well.

CASE CLOSED !!"
 
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M45 said:
That sounds like it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to find out everyone who had actually handled C-SS originating from E.D. But suppose you do that and go to a judge with your information.

One after the other they say under oath that they believed C-SS to be authentic and were fooled just like the "experts". E.D. and couriers say they were just providing a service to friends and had never intended that their work be sold as authentic.

The judge thinks for a minute and says, "Caveat Emptor !" Buyer beware ! The buyer accepts full responsibility for knowing what they are buying. That responsibility cannot be thrown on to someone else's shoulders. If anyone had bothered to do any actual research instead of simply believing Kelly's books or DougB's vettings they would have found no concrete evidence whatsoever to suggest that C-SS had ever existed during the Third Reich period.

That failure of collectors to do their own research is their own fault, therefore the resulting loss of capital is their own fault as well.

CASE CLOSED !!"
Click to expand...

Fortunately, that's not the way it always works, I promise. You understand that an inquiry and investigation doesn't ipso facto mean that everything investigated is prosecuted or convicted or found liable or found guilty. It's an inquiry and investigation and one is necessary here, particularly inasmuch as it seems so many don't want it. The fact that it is so militantly opposed by too many, who want this to simply go away, or those who say that such an investigation "harms the hobby" IMHO tells me that the ethical core of the hobby has some significant rot. This will continue until the hobby is a joke that no younger guys want anything to do with.

And that is precisely why I disagree with your assessment of DougB. He's a good bit more advanced, competent, sophisticated, and astute than most of the bloviating klowns who have enshrined themselves as lid exspurts and who are neck deep in Champagne Rune sauce. He is a real successful businessman who didn't get that way being an arrogant blithering nitwit as I've seen on the forums. He supports an investigation and has provided a huge leg up to anyone who would want to litigate to do that. Theories about his involvement would require acceptance of the concept that a sane and rational person would saw off the limb upon which they were perched with their co-conspirators. There was absolutely no meaningful or heeded movement toward exposing the "Champagne Rune" until DougB's work. He could have easily done nothing and very little to nothing would have happened. Had the issue been raised at WAF again, the same nitwits would have attacked, and the thread locked, people banned, censored, etc. I'm not idolizing the man, just laying out the facts and reality as I see it. I have no dog in this either way other than as being a disgusted long time member of the hobby.
 
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I've only recently started watching this whole thing unfold again with the names and evidence being revealed. As a matter of fact, it was a post in the moderator section of the U.S. helmet forum(Advanced Pots) that brought this back to my attention. I just shake my head and thank God that I now collect U.S. Helmets which have no fakery involved(sarcasm intended). This thing is going to be so far reaching that the sting will last for years but, I think when all is said and done, collectors will rebound and be better as a result of this "educational process". In the end, I am thankful for those who questioned and would not bow down to drink from the Kool-Aid tub which many unquestioningly drank from.
 
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damnboy said:
i think Maui can bring out his Vacuum Tube XRF Machine and do some Testin'..
o.png
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For $249.99, no wait $159.99, and you not only get a COA, but a colorful pie chart!
 
katzenplatz said:
I understand how DougB might become frustrated with the lack of action after his revelations but certainly he knew that they are many decent people in the hobby and that the problem is the Good Ol' Boy network and the repressive forums they dominate. I can understand his dropping out for good but still can not understand why he would erase a decade of posts unless his goal was to completely wreck GHW2 on his way out. Judging from the reaction of GHW2's administrators, they don't feel that he meant them any harm. They didn't have to acquiesce to his request to gut a major part of their forum. My theory is that the Champaign house of cards was ready to fall even without DougB's expose, and he simply decided to save his own skin, perhaps only to preserve his reputation or maybe to avoid legal action/responsibility. These kind of things happen often in the real world, where a co-conspirator in a shady/illegal venture quickly has a change of heart and becomes a co-operating witness with the hope that they can get off scot-free while his compatriots take the fall. Had he not deleted his entire GHW2 history I would feel entirely different but given what he did there it is the only logical conclusion I can come to. What better way to CYA than to erase your entire history?
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These kind of things happen often in the real world, where a co-conspirator in a shady/illegal venture quickly has a change of heart and becomes a co-operating witness with the hope that they can get off scot-free while his compatriots take the fall. Had he not deleted his entire GHW2 history I would feel entirely different but given what he did there it is the only logical conclusion I can come to. What better way to CYA than to erase your entire history?


It is no mystery that I see the issue a bit differently than most. I see the above quote as having substance and could explain the actions of key players, the actions you point to as justification that they could not have knowingly been involved in the C-SS mess. Also the hard deletion of everything DougB has ever said is suspicious, like a covering of the tracks or the tampering with the evidence.

No matter, I still see the judicial scenario as a very real possibility by a government that does not want to waste the time delving into all of the minute feelings and beliefs of potentially hundreds of people. The Caveat Emptor judgement would be welcomed by some and hated by many, but you cannot deny that it IS ultimately the responsibility of the buyer to know what they are buying.

Caveat Emptor: the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made.(google definition) (emphasis added)
 
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M45 said:
These kind of things happen often in the real world, where a co-conspirator in a shady/illegal venture quickly has a change of heart and becomes a co-operating witness with the hope that they can get off scot-free while his compatriots take the fall. Had he not deleted his entire GHW2 history I would feel entirely different but given what he did there it is the only logical conclusion I can come to. What better way to CYA than to erase your entire history?

It is no mystery that I see the issue a bit differently than most. I see the above quote as having substance and could explain the actions of key players, the actions you point to as justification that they could not have knowingly been involved in the C-SS mess. Also the hard deletion of everything DougB has ever said is suspicious, like a covering of the tracks or the tampering with the evidence.

No matter, I still see the judicial scenario as a very real possibility by a government who does not want to waste the time delving into all of the minute feelings and beliefs of potentially hundreds of people. The Caveat Emptor judgement would be welcomed by some and hated by many, but you cannot deny that it IS ultimately the responsibility of the buyer to know what they are buying.

Caveat Emptor: the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made.(google definition)
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I disagree with your assessment as to what "conspirators" do and how courts act and what they will do, not do, and what cases they will hear and not hear, etc. I spent five and a half hours in court yesterday orally arguing, introducing evidence, and dealing with a matter that you likely would think would never be heard by a court. You would be surprised. I'm not directing this at you, but I do find it generally humorous what certain pundits volunteer as wisdom as to how (they think) the law and court system work, to which they speak with apparent authority. Most of this is a factor of such commentators either blithering or simply not knowing what they don't know.

I absolutely believe in "caveat emptor". But I also believe that a thief, rapist, burglar, robber, fraudster, etc., are more culpable and worthy of punishment than a hapless victim who was not careful enough. Under such absolute theories of "caveat emptor" as a defense, then you would not be able to complain if someone who does know what you do not know scammed or took advantage of you for not knowing what you don't know.
 
Hambone, I hope you are right and this thing does go to trial. But if it does, the courts may look very skeptically at those players you see as heroes of the hobby.
 
M45 said:
Hambone, I hope you are right and this thing does go to trial. But if it does, the courts may look very skeptically at those players you see as heroes of the hobby.
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My position is quite simple and let me restate it before you state something different for me:

1) If you don't get a refund on a COA you should sue on the COA.
2) The German lid collecting hobby needs to root out its hucksters, their toadies, aiders and abettors, of which it has too many. (This means and open discussion and "investigation")
3) From the COAs I've seen, the safe money bet is on a win for the COA holder.
4) DougB is not my "hero"; he's a good man with integrity who blew the lid off the Champagne Rune fraud.

I have few "heroes" as I am not a child or an idiot. My "heroes" are dead. There are people whom I respect and those whom I do not. There are people whom I consider friends and there are people whom I do not want as friends. People for whom I have no respect are not my friends. How many times have you been to court? How many times have you served on a jury and sat through a trial?
 
4) DougB is not my "hero"; he's a good man with integrity who blew the lid off the Champagne Rune fraud.

Very well. I'm just saying that a grand jury, jury trial, or bench trial may or may not agree with your position here. "Experts" and authors will no doubt be held to a much higher standard than will the average Joe collector since they have demonstrated their expertise in multiple areas of SS helmet collecting. The premise that Kelly and DougB were "fooled" by C-SS like the rest of us may be heavily scrutinized in light of a number of factors, which you may or may not agree with.

1. Much money was being made off of these things benefiting Kelly and possibly others. How does a "foolish mistake" that costs others so dearly make you so much $$$$ ??
2. There was never any concrete evidence to support them being TR period, and being "experts" they should have realized that (what would the Reasonable Man think ?).
3. DougB rigorously defended C-SS against all criticisms as though he had an agenda to uphold.
4. Only with great reluctance did he begin to back off of certain aspects of C-SS while maintaining his strong "belief" of authenticity for others once lot# research had first revealed problems with it..
5. His early reports of his magnification studies reveal his glaring inconsistencies such as "clear period pulver and base construction" contrasted with the sloppy painted forgery that C-SS actually is.
6. Some of his early posts about C-SS show evasiveness in his descriptions of what he was allegedly seeing.
7. Two of Doug's close associates who vetted C-SS alongside him later admitted they never believed C-SS to be authentic.
 
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Hambone said:
Fortunately, that's not the way it always works, I promise. You understand that an inquiry and investigation doesn't ipso facto mean that everything investigated is prosecuted or convicted or found liable or found guilty. It's an inquiry and investigation and one is necessary here, particularly inasmuch as it seems so many don't want it. The fact that it is so militantly opposed by too many, who want this to simply go away, or those who say that such an investigation "harms the hobby" IMHO tells me that the ethical core of the hobby has some significant rot. This will continue until the hobby is a joke that no younger guys want anything to do with.

And that is precisely why I disagree with your assessment of DougB. He's a good bit more advanced, competent, sophisticated, and astute than most of the bloviating klowns who have enshrined themselves as lid exspurts and who are neck deep in Champagne Rune sauce. He is a real successful businessman who didn't get that way being an arrogant blithering nitwit as I've seen on the forums. He supports an investigation and has provided a huge leg up to anyone who would want to litigate to do that. Theories about his involvement would require acceptance of the concept that a sane and rational person would saw off the limb upon which they were perched with their co-conspirators. There was absolutely no meaningful or heeded movement toward exposing the "Champagne Rune" until DougB's work. He could have easily done nothing and very little to nothing would have happened. Had the issue been raised at WAF again, the same nitwits would have attacked, and the thread locked, people banned, censored, etc. I'm not idolizing the man, just laying out the facts and reality as I see it. I have no dog in this either way other than as being a disgusted long time member of the hobby.
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Exactly, Doug even went so far as to propose a live video link for all to watch at the next SOS to stream a open debate with anyone still espousing and would defend CR decals as authentic in any way shape or form. He even offered to put up wager of a large sum of money awarded to the winner's chosen charity or organization.

Brian you are all wet when it comes to Doug, you are carrying your personal vendetta and animosity way too far and to the point of risking your own credibility. If your attacks are not personal, you are either playing into the hands of those that are trying to besmirch him,.....or somehow fatefully aligned with them. He received pressure and was asked not to publish his scientific findings from a so called expert .

Doug stepped back and walked away because the community yawned, shrugged, and tuned out as to importance of who was negligent - if not complicit - in the scheme of things. I believe he became totally disheartened with what was going on at the "Expert" level, and even more so when the community as a whole responded so passively. He was never in this hobby to make money, it was his passion. He became very disillusioned with the whole thing. When he recently retired and sold his business - he basically said, "(I have a small penis) it, I don't need this shite" and moved on to more worthwhile pursuits.
 
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