Can someone identify this code? (Special cupped buttplate)
- Thread starter Absolut
- Start date
Absolut
Senior Member
The buttplate belongs to a bolt mismatching S/147/G K98k in the d block.
Note that this rifle features a laminated stock which is also matching numbers to the action, as is the (of course also laminated) handguard. The thread plate (or whatever you call that metal thing with the threading for the cleaning rod) is slided in from bottom and not from the inside of the barrel channel.
The buttplate is oversized when compared with a normal cupped buttplate. In fact a normal cupped buttplate fits into this buttplate. Also note the difference with the screw holes and how those were bent. The stock is also inletted differently to accept this modification.
I'll do some better pictures with my DSLR (these here are made only with the iPhone) when I have time for it.
If I understood you two correctly the company "Johannes Großfuß, Döbeln" which hides behind the shown logo (wonder where the "bpr" is hidden in this text?) designed a different K98k buttplate to be optionally fitted to a K98k stock?
How would this fit to a S/147/G rifle with matching numbers laminate stock, some kind of trial?
Note that this rifle features a laminated stock which is also matching numbers to the action, as is the (of course also laminated) handguard. The thread plate (or whatever you call that metal thing with the threading for the cleaning rod) is slided in from bottom and not from the inside of the barrel channel.
The buttplate is oversized when compared with a normal cupped buttplate. In fact a normal cupped buttplate fits into this buttplate. Also note the difference with the screw holes and how those were bent. The stock is also inletted differently to accept this modification.
I'll do some better pictures with my DSLR (these here are made only with the iPhone) when I have time for it.
If I understood you two correctly the company "Johannes Großfuß, Döbeln" which hides behind the shown logo (wonder where the "bpr" is hidden in this text?) designed a different K98k buttplate to be optionally fitted to a K98k stock?
How would this fit to a S/147/G rifle with matching numbers laminate stock, some kind of trial?
Attachments
bpr was the secret 3 letter German code for them. What you have is a very unique buttplate/kickplate assy attached (which looks period done). From my understanding the kick plate was use for Gibirgjaeger units to keep their cleats from damaging the stock while at parade rest. I would be this rifle was used at a school or even possibly as a test subject for this plate system. Very glad you posted this here!
Absolut
Senior Member
My mistake, I do know the bpr coded buttplates, but thought that my rifle has some kind of script version of the "bpr". Looking up the logo of this company I found this:
.. so basically a GfD, what is also visible on my metal parts. Do you know when they changed over to bpr, because that would allow rough dating (prior to the change to bpr, after 1935 when the rifle was made).
Is the cupped stock longer than the flat buttplate stock? And when did the earliest laminate stock appear? I wonder if the stock on my rifle had been changed by this company. If it were only an arsenal overhaul, it would have any markings for this?
.. so basically a GfD, what is also visible on my metal parts. Do you know when they changed over to bpr, because that would allow rough dating (prior to the change to bpr, after 1935 when the rifle was made).
Is the cupped stock longer than the flat buttplate stock? And when did the earliest laminate stock appear? I wonder if the stock on my rifle had been changed by this company. If it were only an arsenal overhaul, it would have any markings for this?
To determine Grossfuss use of logo-code you have to look at their production. Unfortunately their MG34/42 components (the company was to a large extent behind the MG42 development) offers very few clues, but their ammo cans (which they made a lot of) does. 1937-1938 they sport their trademark (GfD=Grossfuss Döbeln), by 1939 they were using their ordnance code 963. Their Kabeltrommel have been seen dated 1939 w/ GfD, but that is the latest use I have noted that can be dated.
One last observation, while their MG42 components almost always use bpr, there are a few early components that show up with GfD or 963, I suspect these are MG34 components, but I am not knowledgeable about the MG34 to the extent of differentiating components from one another. However as WaPrüf2 contacted them in 1937 concerning the development that led to the MG42, it is reasonable to assume they were involved in MG34 component production from around that date and that these early GfD marked components date to this period (none are dated so far as I have recorded, and typically these parts are loose or on m/m guns)
Oh, as to their buttplates, the earliest I have seen is bpr/40, never their logo or ordnance code (963). At least not since I created a folder to record these observations. This kickplate/buttplate almost certainly pre-dates 1940, though it maybe a commercial-private purchase also, which would not carry an ordnance code or waffenamt.
One last observation, while their MG42 components almost always use bpr, there are a few early components that show up with GfD or 963, I suspect these are MG34 components, but I am not knowledgeable about the MG34 to the extent of differentiating components from one another. However as WaPrüf2 contacted them in 1937 concerning the development that led to the MG42, it is reasonable to assume they were involved in MG34 component production from around that date and that these early GfD marked components date to this period (none are dated so far as I have recorded, and typically these parts are loose or on m/m guns)
Oh, as to their buttplates, the earliest I have seen is bpr/40, never their logo or ordnance code (963). At least not since I created a folder to record these observations. This kickplate/buttplate almost certainly pre-dates 1940, though it maybe a commercial-private purchase also, which would not carry an ordnance code or waffenamt.
Last edited:
runner
Senior Member
"How would this fit to a S/147/G rifle with matching numbers laminate stock, some kind of trial?"
I am under the understanding that the laminate stocks did not appear on production rifles until 1937. If you stock is a replacement it appears they
switched over all the metal components, including the recoil lug.
In my collection I have an all matching Mauser K date that is also in a matching numbered laminate stock. Mine also has all the correct early markings on the metal stock components.
I am under the understanding that the laminate stocks did not appear on production rifles until 1937. If you stock is a replacement it appears they
switched over all the metal components, including the recoil lug.
In my collection I have an all matching Mauser K date that is also in a matching numbered laminate stock. Mine also has all the correct early markings on the metal stock components.
Absolut
Senior Member
Wouldn't the laminate stock fit to a trial of this additional plate? I suppose the laminate wood is also more resistant to chips and other damages. I didn't find any other manufacturers markings on the stock, should there be some below the bayonet lug? As said, the cleaning rod threaded plate has been slided in from the bottom, I am only aware of this from very early G98a to K98k conversions.
Paul, many thanks for the history and comparison. So you'd agree that it most probably pre-dates 1939, but after 1937 (because of the laminated stock)? That wouldn't be too bad in dating it.
Paul, many thanks for the history and comparison. So you'd agree that it most probably pre-dates 1939, but after 1937 (because of the laminated stock)? That wouldn't be too bad in dating it.
Yes, 1937-1939, both because of the laminate, but also 1937 was the date of their earliest involvement in ordnance. I would think this is later than that though, probably closer to 1939 than 1937, probably 1938 as that is when the logo "seems" to disappear. So far as one can determine. If you know a MG34-42 collector, you might have luck with their knowledge.
As to the stock, you might removed the buttplate and look for a code-date. "Usually" there is a blank code somewhere on a laminate stock, sometimes in the barrel channel, sometimes under the buttplate, - if an ordnance spare it would be marked as such, usually along the lower butt. If lacking, you are probably out of luck dating the stock.
As to the stock, you might removed the buttplate and look for a code-date. "Usually" there is a blank code somewhere on a laminate stock, sometimes in the barrel channel, sometimes under the buttplate, - if an ordnance spare it would be marked as such, usually along the lower butt. If lacking, you are probably out of luck dating the stock.
Absolut
Senior Member
Paul, I removed everything, including the bayonet lug (OK, I didn't remove the recoil lug! But didn't expect to find any markings below that) - I was not able to make out anything. However, looking at the right side of the stock it COULD be that there once were stock cartouches, with a H below the top one - you need much fantasy to say that they COULD fit there. The barrel channel and the handguard is completely clean, except for the serial numbers. And below the buttplate there is nothing. Oh, and by the way - even the barrel band spring is the original one, bearing the Sauer markings! And below the stock about 99% of the original blued finish is still left!
Would you agree with mrfarb that the rifle was a test subject/used at a school, both because of the stock and the buttplate? Or would you say that someone obtained the buttplate and had it fitted himself?
I did an extensive set of 58 pictures for Bruce yesterday, should I also post them (all or some?) here? They show more details and are taken with a normal camera, not just the iPhone as the ones already shown here.
Would you agree with mrfarb that the rifle was a test subject/used at a school, both because of the stock and the buttplate? Or would you say that someone obtained the buttplate and had it fitted himself?
I did an extensive set of 58 pictures for Bruce yesterday, should I also post them (all or some?) here? They show more details and are taken with a normal camera, not just the iPhone as the ones already shown here.
Nigromontanus
Senior Member
Georg, I do not think there is enough evidence this is some test or experimental rifle/stock, though I suspect it is probably some commercial purchase applied to the stock, possibly for the purpose Mike suggested (school or unit). The Czech VZ.33 didn't have these protectors, so it is possible a German firm made or experimented with the idea, which eventually found their way to the G33/40, - and i can't think of another firm more suited for this than Grossfuss, it is right up their alley (specialty).
All one can do is speculate, but this probably pre-dates the G33/40, maybe it led to the use on the "Germanized" Vz.33, but there is no evidence of any of this. I would like to hear JohnP's thoughts, I will try to email him and see if he has any thoughts. Don't hold your breath though, he is probably having too much fun... Really it would be good to see if any G33/40's have signs of Grossfuss on the kickplate and buttplate, or any clue to military acceptance (take one apart and examine it thoroughly, preferably an early one or several)
All one can do is speculate, but this probably pre-dates the G33/40, maybe it led to the use on the "Germanized" Vz.33, but there is no evidence of any of this. I would like to hear JohnP's thoughts, I will try to email him and see if he has any thoughts. Don't hold your breath though, he is probably having too much fun... Really it would be good to see if any G33/40's have signs of Grossfuss on the kickplate and buttplate, or any clue to military acceptance (take one apart and examine it thoroughly, preferably an early one or several)
Buttplate
I am asking Georg for dimensions (width) on the example on his rifle.
As I emailed him, a standard K98k buttplate could never fit on a standard stock without deeper routing along the fitting areas of
the buttplate. This example appears to have different dimensions (wider) than a standard K98k wartime cupped design.
If the dimensions are different then what are we to conclude?
1. Early prototype design or evaluation model
2. Design for equipping (updating) standard flat buttstocks that never was put into production.
I am pretty sure that the G33/40 back end is the same as a standard K98 buttplate.
At any rate, an interesting anomaly.
I am asking Georg for dimensions (width) on the example on his rifle.
As I emailed him, a standard K98k buttplate could never fit on a standard stock without deeper routing along the fitting areas of
the buttplate. This example appears to have different dimensions (wider) than a standard K98k wartime cupped design.
If the dimensions are different then what are we to conclude?
1. Early prototype design or evaluation model
2. Design for equipping (updating) standard flat buttstocks that never was put into production.
I am pretty sure that the G33/40 back end is the same as a standard K98 buttplate.
At any rate, an interesting anomaly.
Absolut
Senior Member
I didn't know you had the entire rifle, - I thought this was just a stock. Totally over looked post 5, this is much more interesting than I first thought. This is the same rifle Mike showed me a year or two ago... so only one known.
Not sure what to make of it really, but Mike is probably correct in this is an optional part, probably used for special applications. Makes you wonder about why more aren't seen in period photographs, or whether some of those pictures showing kickplated rifles, the ones there the pictures are not especially clear or only butts, whether some of them are 98k and not G33/40 as you normally assume. But, looking at some pictures I have saved over the years, there are many instances of regular 98k with Mountain Troopers, non of which look equipped with kickplates, and others with mix bag of rifles, G33/40's and 98k, most only partially showing the rifles.
I think you might consider looking at German books on the subject, see if you can find a clear shot of one of these rifles, - Libraries in Germany might have a good stock of older books, maybe unit histories and such, at least in larger libraries. Which considering how close everything is in Germany and Austria, couldn't be difficult to find a large library.. for me it would be hundreds of miles.
You know when i was writing the article on Grossfuss, a couple years ago, I searched books sites and internet sources for old Grossfuss catalogs, - they're out there - finding one in the right time frame could be profitable here. They sold all kinds of stamped metal things, mostly household goods, - maybe if you know of someone in Saxony (Döbeln is right in the middle of a triangle of the three big Saxon cities of Leipzig, Chemnitz and Dresden), they might be able to locate a catalog or more information on such things. I know from past experience, collecting period advertising and paper, much of it survived in eastern Germany, I bet most of my period advertising came out of Saxony, - several dealers scrounge this old stuff, or use too, and you can get some good background information looking through the stuff.
Not sure what to make of it really, but Mike is probably correct in this is an optional part, probably used for special applications. Makes you wonder about why more aren't seen in period photographs, or whether some of those pictures showing kickplated rifles, the ones there the pictures are not especially clear or only butts, whether some of them are 98k and not G33/40 as you normally assume. But, looking at some pictures I have saved over the years, there are many instances of regular 98k with Mountain Troopers, non of which look equipped with kickplates, and others with mix bag of rifles, G33/40's and 98k, most only partially showing the rifles.
I think you might consider looking at German books on the subject, see if you can find a clear shot of one of these rifles, - Libraries in Germany might have a good stock of older books, maybe unit histories and such, at least in larger libraries. Which considering how close everything is in Germany and Austria, couldn't be difficult to find a large library.. for me it would be hundreds of miles.
You know when i was writing the article on Grossfuss, a couple years ago, I searched books sites and internet sources for old Grossfuss catalogs, - they're out there - finding one in the right time frame could be profitable here. They sold all kinds of stamped metal things, mostly household goods, - maybe if you know of someone in Saxony (Döbeln is right in the middle of a triangle of the three big Saxon cities of Leipzig, Chemnitz and Dresden), they might be able to locate a catalog or more information on such things. I know from past experience, collecting period advertising and paper, much of it survived in eastern Germany, I bet most of my period advertising came out of Saxony, - several dealers scrounge this old stuff, or use too, and you can get some good background information looking through the stuff.
Sounds right, designed for the flat buttstock 98k, - I assume this was short lived, as the G33/40 and cup buttplates eliminated the need for this optional feature. Sure would be interesting to know how many were made or used.
