Third Party Press

BSW Serial Number Studies and Technical Data

bruce, i have a r/c 1939 bsw. the barrel was replaced with an erma barrel and the serials on the barrel and the receiver were restamped.

you want the numbers on that?
 
Bsw

If its marked BSW on the rec. shoot the data over.

Thanks,
B.
 
here you go:

the 3rd pic of the receiver looks like the original serial was 4423 and i'd swear the barrel was also 4423 also, which would beg the question as to why the restamp if they matched to begin with.
 

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You are assuming it was German done? Why? It is far more likely it was done during the soviet-communist "reworking". That they felt the slaughter of the original finish and tossing original parts to the wind was inadequate.

There is no reason to assume this was done by the Germans, especially as this is not typical of period German reworking practice.
 
You are assuming it was German done? Why? It is far more likely it was done during the soviet-communist "reworking". That they felt the slaughter of the original finish and tossing original parts to the wind was inadequate.

There is no reason to assume this was done by the Germans, especially as this is not typical of period German reworking practice.

sorry, but "far more likely" doesn't constitute fact.

seems far less likely that the russians would have replaced the barrel because if that is the case, i'd tend to believe it to be the first russian captured replaced barrel i've ever seen, but then, maybe that explains the two "x's", which makes no sense to me.
 
Well, I see you are not quite on the same page.. the barrel was a German ordnance spare, probably replaced at a depot during the war. They probably numbered (and fireproofed) the barrel to the receiver at that time (using the original receivers serial).

However, in this case, I am not even sure the serial numbers under the overstrike are original (actually I am pretty sure they aren't), as they look far too apart and not quite right to me.

In any case, I hear Gunboards has a very knowledgeable moderator now, one that has sorted through several thousand rc’s, and he might have the answers as to why the communists-soviet reworkers might have done this to your fine rifle.
 
Well, I see you are not quite on the same page.. the barrel was a German ordnance spare, probably replaced at a depot during the war. They probably numbered (and fireproofed) the barrel to the receiver at that time (using the original receivers serial).

i'm not sure what you are inferring by "you are not quite on the same page..". do you mean that i'm not on the same page as YOU? You wrote "They....". who are you referring to, the germans or the russians?


However, in this case, I am not even sure the serial numbers under the overstrike are original (actually I am pretty sure they aren't), as they look far too apart and not quite right to me.

"Too far apart"? are you talking distance? are you saying that the visible numbers are a 3rd strike? i've looked at the numbers under a microscope, and would be happy to provide measurements as well as pics as i don't agree with that based on what i see in person.

In any case, I hear Gunboards has a very knowledgeable moderator now, one that has sorted through several thousand rc’s, and he might have the answers as to why the communists-soviet reworkers might have done this to your fine rifle.

now i think i understand your implication by the statement: "you are not quite on the same page..", which i am interpreting now as since i don't agree with your opinions, i am wrong. is this a "newb" thing? sure seems that way to me since i'll admit that i don't know who did it, but would love to find out, and obviously, your aren't satisfied with my not accepting your opinion as fact.

you have replied to the thread on gunboards about this rifle;

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?211551-WOO-HOO!!!!-brought-home-the-r-c-bsw-1939!&p=1659415#post1659415

"No, it was a rifle from BSW (RR tells you this much), but been re-barreled obviously, so went through a depot or rework of some kind before the soviets did their magic on it...

Larger question is the serial from the top looks odd, not typical of BSW, possibly re-numbered, which is no biggie as it is an rc and no part would be original to the receiver anyway."

look, i'm not trying to be an a$$ here, just trying to learn. seems counterproductive to make assumptions, then have someone disagree with you and you seemingly post a reply that infers that they should go play somewhere else. and i can do that since it seems my responses are nothing but counter productive since i don't agree with you since i don't have facts to back up my opinions just as you don't for yours.
 
I do not care where you play, here or in traffic is equally agreeable by me…

As to whether or not you agree with my opinion is hardly the point? You have an opinion based upon your level of experience, and I have one based upon mine. It is for others to come up with their own conclusions who is right.

If the point is truly about learning about your rifle, then you might have a more productive experience if you take the rifle apart and show all its markings (barreled receiver) and keep an open mind?

As you see, I have no agenda here as I do not own or want to own your rifle, nor benefit in anyway if yours is authentic German or soviet altered.

Oh, and yes I did reply on Gunboards about this rifle, largely with the same result (you missing the implications of my post- that is wasn't German applied and you could tell just from the way the serialing is applied)

look, i'm not trying to be an a$$ here, just trying to learn. seems counterproductive to make assumptions, then have someone disagree with you and you seemingly post a reply that infers that they should go play somewhere else...
 
I do not care where you play, here or in traffic is equally agreeable by me…

As to whether or not you agree with my opinion is hardly the point? You have an opinion based upon your level of experience, and I have one based upon mine. It is for others to come up with their own conclusions who is right.

If the point is truly about learning about your rifle, then you might have a more productive experience if you take the rifle apart and show all its markings (barreled receiver) and keep an open mind?

As you see, I have no agenda here as I do not own or want to own your rifle, nor benefit in anyway if yours is authentic German or soviet altered.

Oh, and yes I did reply on Gunboards about this rifle, largely with the same result (you missing the implications of my post- that is wasn't German applied and you could tell just from the way the serialing is applied)

"here or in traffic".....:laugh:

the above in bold contradicts what you wrote on gunboards:

"No, it was a rifle from BSW (RR tells you this much), but been re-barreled obviously, so went through a depot or rework of some kind before the soviets did their magic on it..."

see that part in bold?

i have an open mind, which should be pretty apparent since i have questioned where it was done, but, again, YOU seem to want to focus on the idea that YOUR opinion is right, and I am wrong because i am "not on the same page" as YOU.

you wrote: "You have an opinion based upon your level of experience, and I have one based upon mine. It is for others to come up with their own conclusions who is right."

again, another point that i am not ashamed of, that my experience with these is apparently not as vast and deep as yours, and since i recognize that, i don't think it's unreasonable to question your opinion, especially since it seems that you are adamant about throwing that in my face, without facts to back up your opinion. that is all i have been asking for, the "i'm a somebody here and you aren't." isn't good enough for me especially, again, when it appears that you contradict yourself.

i will definitely post more pics of this rifle. i have no issues with that. i find the damn thing intriguing. i am in this for info, not money.

now having thought about the serial, and you could possibly be correct that the last serial is the 3rd number since it is a replaced barrel, BUT, as stated, the serial below the new one i believe to match. now the only explanation i can think of is that the rifle barrel was replaced by the germans during the war. i don't know if barrel date plays into that or not. THEN, either the germans, the russians, or hell, even could have been the importers went looking for rifle #5826, could not find that one, but found this one and decided #5826 is now it's new number.
 
I see no contradiction in my opinion or posts. The problem has more to do with your interpretation of my comments.

Back to your rifle, do the additional pictures, and we can revisit your rifle, as I do have a couple thoughts about possibilities. Long shots, but I am a little curious whether the barrel is an ordnance spare or a salvaged barrel.

It probably is an ordnance spare, but when I looked at the pictures again I realized the barrel could be a salvaged barrel (I see a partial code, and date, but nothing that indicates this is 100% an ordnance spare). If there is signs of the barrel being used before, a serial number and fireproof under the wood, it might explain some of the inconsistencies.

I also have wondered why the serial was scrubbed, re-serialed, and then overstruck, but the nazi fireproof remained on the receiver?

None of these things are relevant to the rifles value in this BSW study, as the who and when the serial was altered is less important than it was done (to the study) but is curious all the same.

If you do more images of the markings we can take this further. If you can only come back with more nonsense that you are being treated unfairly, because of your lack of experience, you will be arguing with yourself.

i will definitely post more pics of this rifle. i have no issues with that. i find the damn thing intriguing. i am in this for info, not money.
 
these are all the markings on the barrel. note the rear site base with 63's.
 

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Well that confirms that it was an ordnance spare barrel, made by ERMA, and the code dates the lot to 1938.

Between that and the 0,2 there is little doubt this re-barrel occurred at a depot, and at such facilities the barrel is usually fireproofed and or serialed to match the host receiver.

There are no absolutes in such reworks or re-barrels, but it would be unusual for the Germans to alter the serial number on both the receiver and barrel in this manner, and I do not see a purpose it would serve.

I doubt this serial alteration was done by the Germans.
 
Based on my limited experience (next to Paul's)....I agree with Paul, seems very sloppy for something the Germans would do. I would think even a field level armorer would have neatly lined out the original s/n, and stamped the new one above or below it.

As paul said, the 0,2 on the shank proves this barrel was originally changed by the Germans, the 0,2 being the designation for a changed barrel. Too bad its an RC, there would have most likely been a stamp on the stock indicating the depot the repair(s) took place.

I just think the overnumbering is way too sloppy to have been done by the Germans. I could be very wrong, but that would be an educated guess. These rifles could have been through a myriad of hands post war, many of which did some really odd things to them....
 
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Advice

I have several bSw rifles I could supply info on if necessary. One 37, non import, missing many parts as it is very much an incomplete rifle but original with what remains. Missing bolt, floorplate and follower as well as front band and spring. I have a 38 and 39 rc rifle good for barrel and receiver data only needless to say.
xwarp I understand your looking for knowledge and can only advise this. I have collected and studied bSw for many years and still cannot come within sniffing distance of the knowledge that SimsonSuhl has on these rifles. Although no one man knows all there is to know on bSw's, if I were to open the bSw door of knowledge, he would be standing more to the front of the line than the back. I have and still do rely on him for much of the info and advice on bSw/gustloff. You can bet he will give you non biased advice on these with no hidden agenda at all. A bit more patience always wins the day. I would offer help but your rifle is an enigma to my eyes but still is an original 1939 rifle produced by bSw actual, and is a rarity in that sense alone.

mow.
 
Bed on my limited experience (next to Paul's)....I agree with Paul, seems very sloppy for something the Germans would do. I would think even a field level armorer would have neatly lined out the original s/n, and stamped the new one above or below it.

As paul said, the 0,2 on the shank proves this barrel was originally changed by the Germans, the 0,2 being the designation for a changed barrel. Too bad its an RC, there would have most likely been a stamp on the stock indicating the depot the repair(s) took place.

I just think the overnumbering is way too sloppy to have been done by the Germans. I could be very wrong, but that would be an educated guess. These rifles could have been through a myriad of hands post war, many of which did some really odd things to them....

what would this depot stamp look like?
 
Usually on the pistol grip portion of the stock, sometimes on the side, but it would be a stick eagle with various codes Mg for Magdeburg, there is a bunch of them, you'd have to do a search for "depot repair or rebuilds" and find the threads...
 
There are several internet resources for the Wehrkreis and HZa system but the below link will give you a general understanding of the organization. (if you click on the very top left title, it will take you to the source report and much more information is available):

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/ch6sec2.html

It also has a brief, and incomplete list, of the various HZa, some did not do rifle repairs, or at least not very many. They all specialized and they all had HNZa which they sub'd work too.

There is a British study on the HZa and Wehrkreis system, which is very much more detailed, but is not available on line. It details each facility in more detail, discusses responsibilities, specialties etc.
 

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