BCD 41
- Thread starter bjarne
- Start date
I agree, a HZa build, - barrel looks Steyr to me, 1939 dated, but an ordnance spare.
Most likely, based upon the serial range, this rifle was assembled in 1942, in the Wehrkreis in west Prussia (Danzig-Graudenz) which was very busy it seems in this period.
Detail the barrel more? Is there a "0,2" on the barrel shoulder? What is the acceptance on the barrel (Waffenamts) Is the barrel code "29" "39" "Si" WaA623?
Si is the steel maker, they provided blanks (raw forgings) to finishers, who formed & drilled the barrel, making a final product that "then" received the acceptance. (this is why waffenamts are important to the "who" made the barrel) Si is believed to be Silesiastahl G.m.b.H., Gleiwitz.
Most likely, based upon the serial range, this rifle was assembled in 1942, in the Wehrkreis in west Prussia (Danzig-Graudenz) which was very busy it seems in this period.
Detail the barrel more? Is there a "0,2" on the barrel shoulder? What is the acceptance on the barrel (Waffenamts) Is the barrel code "29" "39" "Si" WaA623?
Si is the steel maker, they provided blanks (raw forgings) to finishers, who formed & drilled the barrel, making a final product that "then" received the acceptance. (this is why waffenamts are important to the "who" made the barrel) Si is believed to be Silesiastahl G.m.b.H., Gleiwitz.
Last edited:
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Very interesting rifle, depot builds are neat, wish I had one in my collection!
Not to hijack this thread, but I have a new BC report for you Paul, on coincidentally enough another bcd 41...not a depot build though. Straight bcd 41, RC, my buddy picked this up today at a show, and I recorded the s/n and BC info...
s/n 6236 e, BC is avk 25 41 bys, and 3 what looked like E/13 WaA's...
Not to hijack this thread, but I have a new BC report for you Paul, on coincidentally enough another bcd 41...not a depot build though. Straight bcd 41, RC, my buddy picked this up today at a show, and I recorded the s/n and BC info...
s/n 6236 e, BC is avk 25 41 bys, and 3 what looked like E/13 WaA's...
It must be about the only thing you do not have yet!
Thanks for the bcd/41 report, very helpful, the early Gustloff Werke rifles often have interesting features, especially barrels. Always glad to add to the BC trends sheet!
Thanks for the bcd/41 report, very helpful, the early Gustloff Werke rifles often have interesting features, especially barrels. Always glad to add to the BC trends sheet!
bjarne
Senior Member
you are right there is a 0,2 on the barrel shoulder,and not 7.9 like my ax 41,,why is that?,,cant say the waffenamt,,cause i only got these poor pictures,,,,is this mauser rare,and value?
thanks
Last edited:
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
The 0,2 marking designates that it is a replacement barrel, not the original....sure sign of a non-original barrel, but lets you know the Germans did it, not bubba post-war...
If it is all matching, its worth a good buck...again assuming its kosher, and the stock hasn't been sanded (its hard to tell from the pics) but I think its worth more than a regular bcd 41, as its a depot build...I would guess $1500-$2k easy on gunbroker maybe more depending on the craziness...
If it is all matching, its worth a good buck...again assuming its kosher, and the stock hasn't been sanded (its hard to tell from the pics) but I think its worth more than a regular bcd 41, as its a depot build...I would guess $1500-$2k easy on gunbroker maybe more depending on the craziness...
bjarne
Senior Member
depot build?,,does it mean the mauser was built too put in depot,,and taken out when needed it?,,,and why the replacement barrel?,and not the original barrel,did they ran out of barrels,and got them elsewhere?
thanks
Last edited:
I would use Simpson's terminology for a 0,2 marked barrel--ordnance spare. The distinction is that in all likelihood, that barrel did not replace the original barrel on that rifle. Likely it was originally built using that ordnance spare barrel as its original barrel. In most cases, the 0,2 marking will clue one in that a barrel has been replaced. In this case, the rifle was originally assembled by an entity other than the major "manufacturers" and that entity had access to replacement parts.
Your rifle was not originally assembled by Gustloff. It was assembled by/for a German military district using available spare parts. These included a new bcd 41 receiver and the 0,2 marked barrel. Regardless of where the rifle eventually served, it was likely put together to fill some need within the 20th military district.
bjarne
Senior Member
Ok,so its not an rifle you see every day then?,,,
Nope. Not common. Not what I would call rare either but interesting and desirable for many of us.
Yes, I agree with Pisgah, I think the rifle was built "originally" with this barrel, - both the receiver and barrel were provided to the ordnance system as ordnance spares. And during the crisis of the first year in Russia, was built to deal with rifle shortages. (XXth Wehrkreis/HZa builds are by far the most common, though XI, XII, XVII & XXI are also fairly common).
Similar to stop gap measures seen in German production overall, - all the bad decisions of the nazi "leadership" coming to roost, brought about by the stress of an endless campaign. (previous campaigns were short duration, and the poorly structured German economy could handle them..)
Similar to stop gap measures seen in German production overall, - all the bad decisions of the nazi "leadership" coming to roost, brought about by the stress of an endless campaign. (previous campaigns were short duration, and the poorly structured German economy could handle them..)
Astrawerke supplied receivers to several end users "starting" in this time frame, not sure why they used Gustloff Weimars code on so many of them, - possibly because they (Astrawerke) were originally set up for receiver production to supply Gustloff Werke exclusively, or whether just diverted?
Astrawerke is an interesting company, on the brink of bankruptcy before the nazis came to power (they made business machines of some sort..), obviously recovered quickly during the early nazi era, and even had access to slave labor, - more so than you'd expect if the company was totally privately owned.. I suspect they had strong ties to government, or at least high-level nazis.
Really, I think Astrawerke, along with Gustloff Werke, were just part of a very early attempt at rationalization. The idea being several private or not so private (propped up private firms infused with government loans) suppliers, working to supply one large assembler.
One that did not have concerns over profitability or efficiency, government owned, access to large slave labor resources, - basically nazism’s model of industry (Sauckel's and the German Army's version of Göring's Reichswerke).
You see this model developed increasingly over time, - first Simson is turned into a government arsenal of sorts, creating Gustloff Werke. Junkers is highjacked much the same way for the Luftwaffe (Junkers was a rival of Göring and Milch, and had taken large subsidies in the interwar period... making it vulnerable to government accusations), numerous other private firms used to further re-armament in a similar way (VSt-Ruhrstahl etc..)
I think Gustloff receivers (marked- actually Astrawerke made) were just because they were so tied to the government, to the military (it was set up and worked completely on thebehalf of the Army- not the ss), whether the end user was Gustloff assembly, or sent to the ordnance system as a whole, to the depots, really was no different than Spandau sending receivers to Hannover or some ordnance facility in the Imperial era?
Just pure speculation of course..
Astrawerke is an interesting company, on the brink of bankruptcy before the nazis came to power (they made business machines of some sort..), obviously recovered quickly during the early nazi era, and even had access to slave labor, - more so than you'd expect if the company was totally privately owned.. I suspect they had strong ties to government, or at least high-level nazis.
Really, I think Astrawerke, along with Gustloff Werke, were just part of a very early attempt at rationalization. The idea being several private or not so private (propped up private firms infused with government loans) suppliers, working to supply one large assembler.
One that did not have concerns over profitability or efficiency, government owned, access to large slave labor resources, - basically nazism’s model of industry (Sauckel's and the German Army's version of Göring's Reichswerke).
You see this model developed increasingly over time, - first Simson is turned into a government arsenal of sorts, creating Gustloff Werke. Junkers is highjacked much the same way for the Luftwaffe (Junkers was a rival of Göring and Milch, and had taken large subsidies in the interwar period... making it vulnerable to government accusations), numerous other private firms used to further re-armament in a similar way (VSt-Ruhrstahl etc..)
I think Gustloff receivers (marked- actually Astrawerke made) were just because they were so tied to the government, to the military (it was set up and worked completely on thebehalf of the Army- not the ss), whether the end user was Gustloff assembly, or sent to the ordnance system as a whole, to the depots, really was no different than Spandau sending receivers to Hannover or some ordnance facility in the Imperial era?
Just pure speculation of course..
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Good point, never really thought about it....So it begs the question, was the 0,2 marking added once a barrel was selected from spare to go onto a rifle (or in this case, a receievr), or were the barrels stamped with the 0,2 mark when they were relegated (so to speak) to the ordnance spare stocks?
I think they were marked 0,2 before delivery, though hard to say.. for sure the barrels are unquestionably marked differently from in-house production, - Steyr in house barrels are differently marked than those they supplied to the ordnance system.
The 0,2 seems randomly placed on the barrel, irrespective of the serial placement. Sometimes it is below, sometimes next to the caliber marking, sometimes off to the side. As the barrel, if serialed (many weren't) and f/p at the same time this 0,2 was applied, you would think it would be done in a manner it could be seen with the stock on. Seems random, like it was already on the barrel shoulder and when the barrel is mated to the receiver it just is where it ends up...
Of course the serial and f/p will be done as is consistent with normal production (after mating and fireproofing) but the 0,2 seems like it was already there.
Several collectors discussed this a few years back, the purpose of the 0,2, and I do not recall what the general consensus was, except that this marking is only-usually seen on depot re-barrels or depot builds.
The 0,2 seems randomly placed on the barrel, irrespective of the serial placement. Sometimes it is below, sometimes next to the caliber marking, sometimes off to the side. As the barrel, if serialed (many weren't) and f/p at the same time this 0,2 was applied, you would think it would be done in a manner it could be seen with the stock on. Seems random, like it was already on the barrel shoulder and when the barrel is mated to the receiver it just is where it ends up...
Of course the serial and f/p will be done as is consistent with normal production (after mating and fireproofing) but the 0,2 seems like it was already there.
Several collectors discussed this a few years back, the purpose of the 0,2, and I do not recall what the general consensus was, except that this marking is only-usually seen on depot re-barrels or depot builds.
