Third Party Press

1904 Erfurt short karabiner 98

Loewe

Moderator²
Staff member
Recently a collector friend we are all familiar with on this forum (DK), placed me in contact with a lady who was trying to find a home for a rare rifle. Her father passed away recently and she is trying to sell this rifle for her mother, so we will make an exception for the rules against selling rifles. Her email is available for anyone who has an interest in buying this rifle.

Apparently this rifle, carbine, was very well taken care of and retains all its original parts, however as luck would have it, her father drilled holes in the receiver and bridge for sporting purposes. A tragedy to be sure, as this is one hell of a rare rifle, especially in this condition, and had it not been done, we would be talking about a $5000 carbine. However, as this was surely done decades ago, back when no one knew much about these rifles, you can hardly blame the owner, simply put these rifles weren't collected by many people and just weren't worth much. Even today, a local gunshop offered this poor lady a lousy $400 for the carbine! Which I doubt would have been much higher had it not been drilled.

Anyway, here are the pictures of this very rare carbine, and I will add scans of Heinz Lehner's excellent article to familiarize everyone with this rifle variations history. John Wall wrote a number of threads regarding this variation also, I will link to those that still exist on Gunboards, but older ones I will simply paste into posts, - as his remarks are worth saving for future collectors.
 

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More pictures...
 

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Omg, a tragedy for sure. The condition appears to be fabulous. But you're right no one understood what would become of rifles like these 70-100 years later. Thanks for sharing
 
More photographs....
 

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Heinz Lehner - Gun Collector's Digest , 4th Edition

Here is Heinz Lehner's famous article on the subject, of course Dr. Storz's Modell98 book also has a section dedicated to the carbine, but it is readily available and this article isn't. I encourage any serious collector to get both Storz books, but also the 6 or so Gun Collector's Digests, as they all have very useful articles on German small arms in them. Often the earliest "best" work done on Germans small arms.
 

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Heinz Lehner - Gun Collector's Digest , 4th Edition

Heinz Lehner - Gun Collector's Digest , 4th Edition, Part II
 

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John Wall 2004

Post is extinct now, here is the thread:

John Wall
Gold Bullet Club


USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 06:37:49 AM


Friends,
While in Europe several weeks ago, I had the opportunity to examine and photograph an 1903 Erfurt Kar 98 which is not only an untouched, unissued weapon, but one which was not included in Hans Lehner's famous Kar 98 study published 30 years ago in DWJ and "Gun Collector's Digest". I have 22 photos to post, so I will do this in three groups.

Also, knowing that I had a Kar 98 in my hands whose rear sights were in virtually mint, original condition, and knowing that Ned was looking for such a rear sight, I took a number of pictures of this "mini" Lange configuration in the hopes that it might help Ned in his restoration. The pictures are of the size and density so that they can be enlarged to show small markings and detail.
Brest Regards,
John
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Edited by - John Wall on 04/22/2004 02:13:54 AM

mman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


568 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 07:43:11 AM



Great John, but you had me going for a moment, until I looked at all the pictures. (You know how anal I am about sights)

A 1904 rifle should NOT have an original 2-1800m sight, it should be 3-18. The rifle you picture is a 1903, not a 1904.

Thanks for the great stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only one sitting on the edge of my chair...

Jack


A Mauser for me, a Mauser for you, all I want is a M1892. Spanish that is.
REAL Mausers are made at Oberndorf
Their are only two religions on this planet. One is that God is God, the other is that man is god.


John Wall
Gold Bullet Club


USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 08:27:06 AM


Hi Jack,
Opppps on me! You are correct, I copied the year date incorrectly. I'll fix the typo and make it "1903" as per the receiver crest.
Thanks!
Regards,
John


Edited by - John Wall on 04/21/2004 8:17:37 PM


jebber
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
72 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 08:48:47 AM


Awesome rifle, great pics.
Two questions - If you don't mind me asking....

Where and how did this rifle surface?
What's a ballpark price if it went private sale?

Please post more pics - I'd especially like to see stock cartouches.

Thanx

jb


mman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


568 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 09:55:17 AM


John can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was in the British Royal Armouries Museum in Leed's England.


It is doubtful that any 98 carbine in comparable condition has ever been offered for sale. The average example would very likely fetch $5000-10000. The carbine pictured would be almost priceless IMO.

Only 33 appear in the survey John mentions. Only 16 were in private hands. And this example seems to be the singular example with it's original 2-18 rear sight. All other 1903 2nd variations listed were converted "back" to the M88 cartridge with 2-1200m sights installed.

It is breath taking. But that is what we should expect from museums.

Jack


A Mauser for me, a Mauser for you, all I want is a M1892. Spanish that is.
REAL Mausers are made at Oberndorf
Their are only two religions on this planet. One is that God is God, the other is that man is god.


bayoned
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
117 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 11:25:25 AM


All I can say is "WOW".
Great pics of the rear sight. i'll copy them for reference as a guide for mine.
I can't wait to see the full size photos.
Ned


bayoned


mauserdad
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member


USA
869 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 12:35:11 PM


That is very nice.One can only dream of having a rifle like that.John sounds like you had fun over there.Thanks for the PICs and information and Jack thanks for your input.I realize even with my collection of Mausers I have just scratched the surface of collecting.What a great hobby.


mauserdad


mman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


568 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 1:55:54 PM



Amen "dad".

I have narrowed my focus to the point that new treasures are very few and far between. I just mailed the insurance premium on my collection and wonder sometimes if it's worth it. Not much new of late and getting bored......

But then John posts a few pictures and the blood is flowing again. It helps to dream. There must be a minty 1896 6mm trials rifle just around the corner.... :)

Jack


A Mauser for me, a Mauser for you, all I want is a M1892. Spanish that is.
REAL Mausers are made at Oberndorf
Their are only two religions on this planet. One is that God is God, the other is that man is god.


mauserdad
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member


USA
869 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 2:54:07 PM


Jack,your alls postings has the same effect on me.Talking about insurance riders on firearms,my wife is ready to Tar & Feather me now that I am on a retired budget.I have had to knock off the lesser valued ones to keep up with the rising values of some of the other ones.We did an inventory of the collection the other day and a upgradeing of values.She said I have a sickness.I agreed,but its the kind I like to keep feeding.Have a good day.Ed


mauserdad


graf
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
327 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 6:25:36 PM


Incredible rifle, and I agree it would be darn near priceless if it ever "escaped" from the museum... I guess not all the top quality German rifles are in the United States!

Did this example alter Lehner's study- serial number wise?

Looking forward to the next batch!





Edited by - graf on 04/21/2004 6:26:05 PM


gew88guy
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member


USA
881 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 6:33:54 PM


John, how did that little feller manage to sit out WW1 and WW2 ?


1890 Danzig 88/05
1890 Erfurt 88/S
( 4.G.G.R.190 )
1891 Amberg 88/05
1891 Danzig 88/05
1891 Loewe 88/05
( 35.R.9.31 & 58.R.R.208 )
1895 Spandau 88/S "n.m."
( 4.G.R.6.2. )
1895 Spandau 88/S "n.m."
( G.S.1.1.9.4 )
1896 Danzig 88/05


fireman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


569 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 7:59:46 PM


Really great rifle, like Graf said can't wait to see volume 2.

Hey Bayoned How close is this one # wise to yours?


graf
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
327 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 8:04:57 PM


Never mind... I just found the article.
Geez, my filing system leaves something to be desired, I see it isn't a high for 1903, however it surely is the finest!

Apparently the "known" high is 1498, which is a good indicator of just how rare this rifle is!
The 1904 (7141) & 1905's (8993) are quite a bit more common (from the chart) but both quite low- plus one must remember the survival rate must be dismal!

For those interested in reading the article it can be found fairly easily on ABE or other similar book search sites- it is in ""4th edition Gun Collectors Digest 1985"
As soon as Peter Kuck mentioned it I made a concerted effort to find it and was quite surprised by its detail & length (14 pages!)



John Wall
Gold Bullet Club


USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:02:11 PM


quote:

Originally posted by jebber

Awesome rifle, great pics.
Two questions - If you don't mind me asking....

Where and how did this rifle surface?
What's a ballpark price if it went private sale?

Please post more pics - I'd especially like to see stock cartouches.

Thanx

jb





Hi jb,
This carbine's provinence I am unsure of since I had a very limited amount of the curator's time. However, in my limited experience in national museums, older arms of this high level of condition are generally rifles that were originally government-to-government exchanges or trial rifles. This is certainly the case in the US at the Springfield Armory Museum.

Regarding value, I know of three Kar 98's which have sold at public auction in the past 5 years. The best of the lot, the only matching one, sold for around $7,500 including auction house fees. I would suspect this carbine, with it history and current owner (MoD Pattern Room), would sell in the US$10-12,000 range, if not higher. But from what I saw, there is no chance of this happening.
Best Regards,
John



Edited by - John Wall on 04/21/2004 9:04:48 PM


John Wall
Gold Bullet Club


USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:24:19 PM


quote:

Originally posted by graf

Incredible rifle, and I agree it would be darn near priceless if it ever "escaped" from the museum... I guess not all the top quality German rifles are in the United States!
Did this example alter Lehner's study- serial number wise?
Looking forward to the next batch!





Hi Paul,
Lehner's study identified 10 carbines made at Erfurt in 1903, whose serial numbers ranged from 0001 to 1498. According to Lehner's data, numbers 0001 through 0905, and number 1498, are marked "98" on their siderails, while numbers 1095 through 1221 are marked "Kar 98". This carbine, number 1071 marked "Kar 98" adds a bit more information on side rail markings, but little else.

Interestingly, Lehner notes that all the "Kar 98s" which are near the serial number of this carbine (1071) are all unit marked "M.G.A", machine gun detachments. This carbine has no unit markings whatsoever, having apparently been pulled out of stock well before its compansion arms were issued.
Best Regards,
John


John Wall
Gold Bullet Club


USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:32:53 PM


quote:

Originally posted by gew88guy

John, how did that little feller manage to sit out WW1 and WW2 ?





Hi John,
I'm unsure how this survival took place, but the collection, I would assume, must have gone into deep storage until the aerial bomb and guided missile threat ended in 1945.
Regards,
John


MikeS
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
283 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:39:47 PM


Super posting John! The stamps in the stock are unbelievable. Do you have any idea what the finish on the stock is?

Guess we can dream...., Thanks for sharing.

- Best Regards! Mike


I can spell, I just can't tipe!


mman
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


568 PostsPosted - 04/21/2004 : 9:44:20 PM




Maybe JPS would know, but I suspect they simply were not issued after the trials and adoption of the K98a(AZ) in 1908-09? Were not many converted to training rifles and others converted to 7mm and sold surplus to Mexico? I suspect the unit marks were from the trial issue and not service in the great war?

Jack


A Mauser for me, a Mauser for you, all I want is a M1892. Spanish that is.
REAL Mausers are made at Oberndorf
Their are only two religions on this planet. One is that God is God, the other is that man is god.


John Wall
Gold Bullet Club


USA
443 PostsPosted - 04/22/2004 : 02:29:02 AM


quote:

Originally posted by MikeS

Super posting John! The stamps in the stock are unbelievable. Do you have any idea what the finish on the stock is?

Guess we can dream...., Thanks for sharing.

- Best Regards! Mike





Hi Mike,
There is a finish on the stock, that much I can verify. Frankly, after examining the carbine in the storage vault in normal "basement" type lighting, there is much more detail visable in these hastily taken pictures than there was to the naked eye when I had the carbine in hand! The close-up lens and the flash reveal much more detail, even though the carbine is never fully in focus in any one picture. I find myself sitting in front of my monitor looking at these pictures, and thinking, "Wow! did I see that?" and "I don't remember this rifle looking THAT good!".

That being said, it is very hard to tell, a century later, if there is an intentionally-applied lacquer or vanish finish of some sort. It may well be a plain oil finish, which has simply hardened over the years, as substances like linseed oil will. It also might be a substance mixed togther containing varnish,linseed oil, and a thinnner of some sort.
Best Regards,
John


Edited by - John Wall on 04/23/2004 12:24:59 PM


bayoned
Gunboards Premium Member


USA
117 PostsPosted - 04/23/2004 : 11:30:42 AM


Re: what is my serial number?
My Kav.Kar.98 Erfurt 1900, First Pattern Cavalry carbine, is #479.
John, I've just sent you the first 3 photos of this piece.
Please feel free to post, as it will be until mid next week to receive the others in the group.
Ned


bayoned


JPS
Moderator - WWI Arms & Militaria Collector


USA
683 PostsPosted - 04/23/2004 : 9:52:28 PM


quote:

Originally posted by mman



Maybe JPS would know, but I suspect they simply were not issued after the trials and adoption of the K98a(AZ) in 1908-09? Were not many converted to training rifles and others converted to 7mm and sold surplus to Mexico? I suspect the unit marks were from the trial issue and not service in the great war?

Jack





Yo Gents,

Great photo presentation John. What a beautiful example of an extremely rare carbine! Like you, my exprience with Museum specimens tends to support the presence of pattern room examples that were openly exchanged between Govts. rather than post war captured weapons. Not that most Museum collections don't have plenty of wartime captured specimens, but simply that no issue weapon would have ever survived a major conflict in the condition that many of these rare examples display.

I know for a fact that both my mint Berdan I as well as my mint Serb 78/80 Mauser, came out of the same pattern room collection. The Berdan I has no serial number at all, which indicates that it was never issued in the Russian Army and the Serb Mauser still retains it's matching serialized bayonet. Neither would possibly have survived in this condition had these been issue rifles. It still amazes me that there are as many unfired examples in Museum collections as there are, considering how long ago these rifles were produced and given the usual budgets granted to Govt. run Museums these days.

Jack, as far as issue during WWI, these carbines were produced in very small numbers and appear t have been scattered to the four winds long before WWI started. I am not familiar with any evidence what so ever to suggest that they were issued in any numbers during WWI. Had any examples been around, it is certainly possible, but there is no written or photographic evidence that I am aware of that would support this. I believe, like you, that most them most likely went to Mexico. This would explain why a period 98A bolt will occasionally turn up in Mexican weapon, like the matching example that Ned found for his excellent carbine.

Neat stuff guys! Beautiful photos John and nicely presented. Thanks for sharing these with us.

Warmest regards,

JPS
 

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Post is extinct now, here is the thread: pictures part II
 

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I re-opened the thread. Had to close it so I could get all my intended posts on the front page. It really is an exceptional example, even with its problem. In the 17-18 years I have collected research on the variation, I have recorded 19 examples, only one at auction, and that was on egun (Germany) and it was a disaster (another on Herman Historica, another German auctioneer). I have never seen one for sale on Auction Arms or Gun Broker, - and John Wall once said as much, only in large auction sales.

These are some expensive holes, but the rifle is exceptional otherwise. Probably as good as it gets and the holes I have seen repaired before so that it is nearly impossible to tell they existed.

Omg, a tragedy for sure. The condition appears to be fabulous. But you're right no one understood what would become of rifles like these 70-100 years later. Thanks for sharing
 
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I remember bringing up an article of these either last year or this year. One member posted one that was in 7mm which I thought was neat how it ended up in Mexico later in its life. Thank you for posting Paul really good pictures too I have too say of a very rare carbine. Shame about the holes in the piece but I believe they can be plugged and maybe not be as noticeably. If she's willing too sell this carbine I would be interested in this piece. It would go well in my Erfurt collection.
 
Yes, quite a few ended up in Mexico, they show up rarely, but altered I think, - and beat to hell usually. I generally do not record them, but I remember the one you speak of, I didn't record it.

Most seem to have, like Heinz alluded to, ended up in the German colonies, which means they are in England, Australia, South Africa etc.. often in museums.
 
Thanks for a great thread. A buddy we both know has one but as I recall, it doesn't match. Having a gun magician restore the holes is easily doable at about $100 per but keeping before and after pix with the rifle would be a must.
 
I assume MarkW? I am unsure if Craig Brown owned one, he detailed quite a few of his rifles for my trends work, but never a short K98; you would think John Wall would have owned one, but if he did he never mentioned it or shared his rifles information. I think really nice unaltered examples are pretty rare, even for museums. Jeff Noll's book references most of the known rifles, I assume BobL is included, and it is supposed to be an exceptional example according to Jon Speed.

Jon Speed noticed the thread and said when he gets home he has something worthwhile to add on the subject, from Hans Lockhoven's collection.

I have had a couple pm's over this rifle, just to be clear, she is selling this rifle, I do not own it. I told her these are generally worth around $5000 in her rifles condition when they have no distractions, some exceptional examples more, but with the holes, the general consensus is major distractions halves a rifles value, be it stock problems or bolt problems, so I estimated $2000-3000 as a reasonable value for the carbine. She is in Washington state also.

Naturally, less collectors are hunting for these obscure short carbines, but if you know of an interested party, let them know one is available. I have her phone numbers and email, and will share it with any interested party.
 
Actually talked too my gunsmith buddies about this today at their shop. They have been doing it for over 30 years and have done great work over the years. They told me their are two options one you weld the holes and refinished the metal or you installed plugs in the holes. The same type of plugs you would see if you bought a hunting rifle that was drilled out for scope.
 
From a machining POV, the receiver holes would be easy to fix with some careful TIG welding and finishing, and would not compromise any of the heat treat/shooting safety of the piece if done correctly. My usual rate for TIG is $80 an hour, 2 hour minimum to allow for set up (actual weld time for this would be ~20 minutes). A competent engraver could restore the '1904' in less than an hour, though the owner would need to be present to offset any issues with 'gun smithing without an FFL'.

All and all, it is definitely worthy of restoration. I could probably afford this carbine if it were available at a reasonable price. Feel free to contact me about it Paul, either for the sale or for help in the restoration of it.

This is a carbine I've pined for, for many years; the closest I have come is a 10+ year project involving a cut down/modified/welded Lange sight on a cut down '17 Spandau barreled action. A 'reasonable facsimile' from 15 feet away.

Is this piece unit marked? I would expect it to be. If it were marked to a M.G.K or A unit, that would be awesome.
 
Thanks for all the sound advice from the usual sources. I know that when this rifle is restored, the work will be documented and the process will not be completed with the intent to deceive anyone. Some of the work I have seen done on other types of firearms has been undetectable without x-rays and is so prevalent that it has created a high level of suspicion whenever one is offered for sale, so much so, that their value has fallen.
 
What a shame. Bubba always looks for the rare ones. Hopefully this gets restored well. I look forward to the new owner posting pics one day, whomever that may be.
 

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