1944 bnz K98 questions

Hello,

Newbie here... and not really a firearms person either.

Anyway a couple of questions about a rifle that came into my possession, along with some background.

Here's the story. I now have a vet bring-back 1944 bnz K98 that came from my wife's uncle who served in the u.s. army in Germany from D-day into the occupation. Right now, the rifle is with a buddy who is WW2 history buff who is going to help me bring it back to its original glory, so I can't post pictures. Here's what I know. The uncle brought the rifle back or had it shipped back along with a lot of other German war relics at or near the time of the surrender. It's in great shape and probably hasn't been fired since 1945. All of the eagle/swastika markings are intact, and there are lots of correct proof marks. Here are the issues:

1. The rifle has the typical duffle cut right at the point where the forward band that the sling attaches to is located. Unfortunately, everything in front of this point (stock, metal fittings) has been lost. I'm guessing he just never got around to putting it all back together again after the war. I recall him showing me the rifle (along with some other ones as well) that he kept in the duffle that he brought them back in. Anyway, here's my first question. Would I be better off replacing the entire stock or getting a sacrificial stock and cannibalizing it to replace the lost section? Which would be more historically correct? I got myself a RC stock that looks right, but it's still Russian capture. The original stock still has the proof marks on it, and I'd hate to lose those.

2. This question involves the rifle itself. As far as I can tell, all of the serial numbers match, except for the bolt assembly, whose parts all match within. However, the barrel doesn't match, which I find odd. Is there any reason why a different barrel might have been installed on a rifle from this factory at this late war time?

I'm not really worried about value, as I don't want to sell the rifle, but rather display it once I get it "right". I also got some other artifacts from the same gentleman's estate that no one wanted that would go well with the rifle, such as a 1914 iron cross, a German arm band with swastika, and a few other small items. I want to keep all of these items together from a historical viewpoint.

I really am intrigued by the history of these things, so any advice, especially with regard to restoration would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

First of all, the original stock should always be kept with the rifle, fix it. As to the barrel not matching, no way it left the factory like that but you are probably looking at numbers on the barrel that are not part of the serial number. You are going to have to post photos so you can really get a good answer, even cell phone photos are better than none.

mrfarb said:

First of all, the original stock should always be kept with the rifle, fix it. As to the barrel not matching, no way it left the factory like that but you are probably looking at numbers on the barrel that are not part of the serial number. You are going to have to post photos so you can really get a good answer, even cell phone photos are better than none.

Click to expand...

Thanks mrfarb, as that's what my gut was telling me. I should be able to get some photos up once the rifle comes back to me, or I get over to it. I'll be curious to see what the deal with the barrel is...

Some of the subcontractor barrel codes look like serial numbers, I'm guessing that's the issue.

mrfarb said:

Some of the subcontractor barrel codes look like serial numbers, I'm guessing that's the issue.

Click to expand...

Here's an update to my original post. I have my K98 back now, and have taken a bunch of photos. I'm going to try to upload them here, so let me know what I have... I now see I'll need to get the files re-sized in order to post... Will get to it asap.

OK, finally some pictures... These are not great; taken with my wife's cell phone, so not of the highest resolution. I have better ones, but am still trying to figure out how to lower the resolution so I can post them. the rifle is now in a Russian Capture stock, but I have the original, which I'd like to eventually replace the missing fore-piece (missing from the original duffle cut).

The original stock matches the barrel, which also matches the sights. The bolt is mis-matched from the rifle, but complete within itself, though the floor plate matches the bolt.

I removed the bolt and looked down the barrel as well, and it's really clean and shiny, with no pitting and strong rifling remaining throughout. I don't think this rifle saw much combat.

Let me know what you think... The history of the rifle as I understand it is above in my first post on this thread.

Now, on to the pictures, and let me know if there are other useful shots I could provide!

Clearer pictures....

OK, here are some higher resolution, clearer pictures of the rifle....

I assume this is a c-block, although the suffix looks like an r-block, no way it fits that range... the barrel is a Ruhrstahl barrel which is also typical of this range (c-block), but try and do a clear picture of the suffix (the letter under the 9872). My guess is it is a c-block, but it could be something else. The features of this rifle (b/r) started in the c-block and everything points to that, but that sure looks like an "r", just the rifles features are all wrong for that block.

As for your questions, I do not see anything that matches the barreled receiver, looks like a total mismatch, though you do not show the bands. The number you need the parts to match to are 9872 or 72, any other number it is not original. As far as the trigger guard-floorplate goes, a c-block the floorplate would be serialed, on a r-block it wouldn't. Bands, a c-block both bands would be serialed, an r-block neither.

This should be a c-block rifle, no way this is an r-block, so the bands and the floorpalte should have the 9872 on them to be original to the rifle. While I know family stories are irresistible, the simple fact is Germany did not mismatch rifles intentionally, that it occurred is indisputable, however in either case if the parts are mismatched (different numbers), they are not original.

Loewe said:

I assume this is a c-block, although the suffix looks like an r-block, no way it fits that range... the barrel is a Ruhrstahl barrel which is also typical of this range (c-block), but try and do a clear picture of the suffix (the letter under the 9872). My guess is it is a c-block, but it could be something else. The features of this rifle (b/r) started in the c-block and everything points to that, but that sure looks like an "r", just the rifles features are all wrong for that block.

As for your questions, I do not see anything that matches the barreled receiver, looks like a total mismatch, though you do not show the bands. The number you need the parts to match to are 9872 or 72, any other number it is not original. As far as the trigger guard-floorplate goes, a c-block the floorplate would be serialed, on a r-block it wouldn't. Bands, a c-block both bands would be serialed, an r-block neither.

This should be a c-block rifle, no way this is an r-block, so the bands and the floorpalte should have the 9872 on them to be original to the rifle. While I know family stories are irresistible, the simple fact is Germany did not mismatch rifles intentionally, that it occurred is indisputable, however in either case if the parts are mismatched (different numbers), they are not original.

Click to expand...

Thanks Loewe, that's way more than I knew about the rifle before... Anyway, I looked more closely to try to answer some of your questions. The letter below the 9872 is definitely a "C" but poorly struck. Also, the forward band has the 9872 number, but's that's the forward-most part of the original rifle that I have. It does seem odd that the floor plate matches the bolt and not the barrel. Either way, I've always wanted to get my hands on a Mauser rifle for historical purposes, so I'm glad I have this one.

A few more photos

Loewe said:

I assume this is a c-block, although the suffix looks like an r-block, no way it fits that range... the barrel is a Ruhrstahl barrel which is also typical of this range (c-block), but try and do a clear picture of the suffix (the letter under the 9872). My guess is it is a c-block, but it could be something else. The features of this rifle (b/r) started in the c-block and everything points to that, but that sure looks like an "r", just the rifles features are all wrong for that block.

As for your questions, I do not see anything that matches the barreled receiver, looks like a total mismatch, though you do not show the bands. The number you need the parts to match to are 9872 or 72, any other number it is not original. As far as the trigger guard-floorplate goes, a c-block the floorplate would be serialed, on a r-block it wouldn't. Bands, a c-block both bands would be serialed, an r-block neither.

This should be a c-block rifle, no way this is an r-block, so the bands and the floorpalte should have the 9872 on them to be original to the rifle. While I know family stories are irresistible, the simple fact is Germany did not mismatch rifles intentionally, that it occurred is indisputable, however in either case if the parts are mismatched (different numbers), they are not original.

Click to expand...

OK, I've added a few more requested pictures. Also some of the original stock, which matches the barrel, as does the hand guard.

So obviously, I have a somewhat mis-matched rifle. As this doesn't appear to be a Russian Capture, why and when would such a mismatch have occurred?

Again, thanks for all the feedback. I'm really fascinated by all of this, so every bit I learn is something of a revelation.

You are correct, this isn't an rc, - it is about a thousand times better than such a rifle... which are essentially garbage other than their utility as a tool (rifle). Though the irony of it all is that many inexperienced new guys will pay more for an rc than such a rifle, - there are opportunists that prey on new collectors, young men that readily gobble up all the wild and baseless carnival barking about these "rc's" that try to associate these rifles with "Stalingrad", the SS or some other farcical connection to history... these opportunists are worse than humpers, as humpers do not operate under the guise of "helping" new guys, they know they are scum, everyone accepts them for what they are, - vermin; these rc opportunists, many thoroughly invested in inventory, prey on the less knowledgeable, worse they pollute the forums with their propaganda, ruining one forum after another...

Regarding this rifle, it is worth doing as Mike suggested, repairing the stock, it will enhance the value significantly. Having the rear band is a plus, but the trigger guard assembly can be either stamped or milled, most common TG is e/135 stamped, floorplates are more often milled, but the FP should be serialed with the 9872, so no fixing that. I would try and find a e/77 milled that isn't serialed to replace what you have, it isn't original. If the TG is e/135, it is probably original (I can't make it out).

Front bands can also be either, what you have, a solid milled is fine, though it would have been serialed.

As for scenarios, possibly this rifle was brought back, the front band lost with the rest of the front end... the floorplate probably came off which they are prone to do sometimes, or maybe it was lost along with the front end. He probably had it separate in the box or duffle bag. Possibly, depending on the TG make (if it isn't e/135) the whole assembly was lost, if it is e/135, maybe he only lost the FP.

What is almost certain is that the rifle wasn't "captured" like this. The m/m parts probably occurred when it came here... I am sure the soldier probably had other things on his mind upon returning home, probably just took it out and tossed it in a closet. Who wants to be reminded of all that crap when you finally get home from a war... no telling though.

Loewe said:

You are correct, this isn't an rc, - it is about a thousand times better than such a rifle... which are essentially garbage other than their utility as a tool (rifle). Though the irony of it all is that many inexperienced new guys will pay more for an rc than such a rifle, - there are opportunists that prey on new collectors, young men that readily gobble up all the wild and baseless carnival barking about these "rc's" that try to associate these rifles with "Stalingrad", the SS or some other farcical connection to history... these opportunists are worse than humpers, as humpers do not operate under the guise of "helping" new guys, they know they are scum, everyone accepts them for what they are, - vermin; these rc opportunists, many thoroughly invested in inventory, prey on the less knowledgeable, worse they pollute the forums with their propaganda, ruining one forum after another...

Regarding this rifle, it is worth doing as Mike suggested, repairing the stock, it will enhance the value significantly. Having the rear band is a plus, but the trigger guard assembly can be either stamped or milled, most common TG is e/135 stamped, floorplates are more often milled, but the FP should be serialed with the 9872, so no fixing that. I would try and find a e/77 milled that isn't serialed to replace what you have, it isn't original. If the TG is e/135, it is probably original (I can't make it out).

Front bands can also be either, what you have, a solid milled is fine, though it would have been serialed.

As for scenarios, possibly this rifle was brought back, the front band lost with the rest of the front end... the floorplate probably came off which they are prone to do sometimes, or maybe it was lost along with the front end. He probably had it separate in the box or duffle bag. Possibly, depending on the TG make (if it isn't e/135) the whole assembly was lost, if it is e/135, maybe he only lost the FP.

What is almost certain is that the rifle wasn't "captured" like this. The m/m parts probably occurred when it came here... I am sure the soldier probably had other things on his mind upon returning home, probably just took it out and tossed it in a closet. Who wants to be reminded of all that crap when you finally get home from a war... no telling though.

Click to expand...

Excellent, and thanks Loewe. That is all great information and gives me a future direction to go. I'm just glad my rifle has a genuine "war eagle" on it! Yes, I did watch those youtube videos by the Classic Arms guy...

I agree with everything Loewe said, the rifle is a C block and has a lot of matching components which is great. It's right at a point in the Steyr factory history where there was a lot of chaos going on. One really neat aspect is the stock, which most people probably wouldn't notice, the stock is from J.P. Sauer but supplied to Steyr (it has the correct Eagle H for Steyr). I can tell by the small take down disc and unique Sauer bolt cutout. I'd bet the stock is numbered inside to match (you may have said that already). Worth putting the effort into fixing.

mrfarb said:

I agree with everything Loewe said, the rifle is a C block and has a lot of matching components which is great. It's right at a point in the Steyr factory history where there was a lot of chaos going on. One really neat aspect is the stock, which most people probably wouldn't notice, the stock is from J.P. Sauer but supplied to Steyr (it has the correct Eagle H for Steyr). I can tell by the small take down disc and unique Sauer bolt cutout. I'd bet the stock is numbered inside to match (you may have said that already). Worth putting the effort into fixing.

Click to expand...

Thanks mrfarb. Yes, both the stock and hand guard match the serial number on the barrel, rear sight, and rear band. That's interesting about the stock as well, in terms of who supplied it. If you guys know of a specialist here in Pennsylvania who might be able to help me with the stock repair, I'm all ears....

I think this is an excellent rifle for historical purposes. I would definitely take it off your hands! Make it complete and put it away. Shoot it once in awhile also! Obviously after having it looked at by a professional. Nice find!

A few more questions...

It's been a couple of years since I brought this rifle to the attention of the folks here, but I've looked a bit more closely and have another question or two...

First, I just noticed that the cocking piece is numbered identically to the rest of the rifle (barrel, stock, sight, etc), exclusive of the bolt assembly and floor plate, which match themselves. Was this common? I would assume that if there was a straight-up bolt-mismatch, that the cocking piece would match the rest of the bolt assembly.

Secondly, I finally noted the the trigger guard is numbered. It has the number "135" under a proof mark, which I think one of you guys said it should be to be original.

I still need to get the original stock repaired and put back on the rifle...

This one is on constant display in my man cave, so I get to see and enjoy it every day as an interesting part of WWII history.

By the way, I like to lurk here, as I learn lots of stuff. I even picked up a BSW trainer last year that's a great shooter.