Third Party Press

1909 Spandau Gew98M Mutt or Pedigree?

plymouthmauser

Senior Member
The Spandau arrived today. Seems mostly a mutt and the bore isn't too good. Receiver, barrel, front and rear sights, trigger, sear, and front trigger screw match. Bolt parts are unnumbered save bolt body. Unknown proof on stock by take down washer. Unknown codes on root of barrel that completely circle it. Hand guard is unnumbered, stock and butt plate have different numbers.

So who modified this after the Germans did? Hopefully the barrel has a little life left.

T
 

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And a few more:

T
 

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It is my opinion the barrel is Polish, that the waffenamt is e/77, and I have seen such a barrel before, but they are very rare. JimP owned such a rifle with a similar barrel, off hand I believe it was a 98a. I am more interested in the suffix, it seems beyond what is reasonable... it shouldn't be beyond a b-block, which it seems it is?

The stock I have no idea, though I think it irrelevant to the origins of the rifle.
 
It looked like a 'r' to me.

Well, I guess its officially a DOG. The bore is shot out, and all rounds key-holed. Question now is whether to re-barrel it, flip it, or part it out.

T

...and to add insult to injury, SON would rather stay home and CLEAN HIS ROOM than come with me and shoot a pumpkin.:moon:
 

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On the receiver at least it looks like the suffix is sharper, less worn, more distinct, - which suggests a latter application. The acceptance proves this receiver fits 1909 Spandau, it matches well with very late 1908 - first block 1909 Spandau's, but doesn't match as well a-block 1909's. I think the suffix was added later, which is rarely seen but does happen (I have seen several cases of rifles rebuilt by replacing the receiver, probably a receiver flaw or damaged and the new receiver is serialed to the components that are still good, at least that is what seems to have occurred, but it is usually an ordnance spare receiver, often Simson made blanko's, not old recycled receivers)

I see no harm re-barreling if your intent is shoot it; no great loss anyway, I think the barrel is original to WWII and value (what there is) could be harmed separating them. It seems these are leftover wz29 barrels by the style of barrel coding, never used, leftovers utilized for the purpose, - probably not a Polish used G98 receiver, but just a German depot use of a leftover Polish barrel (though without a stock one can only guess). The RR acceptance re-inspections suggest the receiver saw interwar German depot work, so if that is the case, it is unlikely the receiver was ever in Polish hands, impossible if my research is correct.

This barrel is very similar in markings to one thread recently, a few months ago, where the guy took great offense to my thoughts that his barrel wasn't German. At the time I stated it looked Polish, but he got so hyperventilated that he refused to discuss it further. So we were unable to confirm it either way.

Anyway, this rifle, barreled receiver anyway, is an interesting find, a tough year to find and has an interesting barrel, but probably not worth a great deal, or worth restoring in all probability.


It looked like a 'r' to me.

Well, I guess its officially a DOG. The bore is shot out, and all rounds key-holed. Question now is whether to re-barrel it, flip it, or part it out.

T

...and to add insult to injury, SON would rather stay home and CLEAN HIS ROOM than come with me and shoot a pumpkin.:moon:
 
We were out at the movies seeing "Sully". If anyone hasn't seen it, its pretty good - Clint Eastwood produced and directed.

So this was originally a no letter block 1909?

I still don't understand why a suffix would have been added; not saying it wasn't I just don't understand, and I'm here to learn. Was it when the receiver was slipped into a production run of new rifles that were in the 'r' block? If a rebuild/conversion to a -M, why would a suffix be added? Would the 'r' have been added in WWII?

Better pic of acceptance proofs. Any idea who worked the stock?

T:)
 

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Clint Eastwood does good work in an industry where good work is difficult to accomplish...

I am saying two things, - one that the suffix looks newer than the original serial number of the receiver, second that it is incredibly unlikely Spandau made it anywhere near the r-block in 1909, all known rifles are in the first and a-block, I could believe a b or c block is possible, hell maybe a d-e block being its Spandau, but as far as is known, no maker pre-war made it to the r-block in a single year (Danzig does use high blocks, beyond the r-block, but this is because Danzig produced rifles without rolling over the suffixes the first few years. It is possible others did very early on also, Mauser and DWM may have the first couple years, maybe Erfurt also, but only Danzig did to the extent that they could reach the r-block). The two factors, a suffix that looks newer and the range itself suggest the suffix is a latter addition. The fact that the RR acceptance is right for a first block or early a-block, but not a late a-block or 1910 also suggest this is a no suffix rifle originally (but made in 1909 originally)

As to rationalizing how this came about, well this is just subjective speculation, based upon limited observations, - I am just saying that there are cases of receivers serialed to groups of components, as if a rifle had a flawed receiver or the receiver was damaged and the replaced receiver was matched to the group of components. This would be unusual in this case, they usually do not used a salvaged receiver doing this, they usually use an ordnance spare, but it is an example of a general theme that ordnance depots did use salvaged receivers in odd ways, including re-numbering them for specific purposes (the Reichsmarine also did queer things). I would think the r would have been added in the early rearmament phase, the 1935-1938 period, when the rifle was first reworked or upgraded, - the RR markings added to the original markings are typical of this period (or somewhat earlier) and not so much later, it could also have been added when the Polish barrel was added, which imo would be 1940 or there about. After SDP took over but not long after, - the G29/40 program took most of the left over components starting in late 1940 - , but this is obviously a left over finished barrel, not raw forgings which is what the G29/40 program used.

Anyway, this is an educated guess based upon my research, there is no obligation to accept it, but I doubt you will get a better opinion with only a barreled receiver. Really without the stock and RS (I assume the RS is m/m or you would have shown it, it might help date the last work if it were original) there isn't much to go on, most depot work (acceptance) is found on the stocks.

So this was originally a no letter block 1909?

I still don't understand why a suffix would have been added; not saying it wasn't I just don't understand, and I'm here to learn. Was it when the receiver was slipped into a production run of new rifles that were in the 'r' block? If a rebuild/conversion to a -M, why would a suffix be added? Would the 'r' have been added in WWII?

Better pic of acceptance proofs. Any idea who worked the stock?

T:)
 
RS is matched to the original serial; posted in the first set.

T
 

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Rear sight base: 3x e/359
Rear sight ramp: unmarked
Rear sight leaf: small Weimar proof, 24, renumbered '60'
Rear sight spring: e/214
Rear sight slide: small proof

T
 

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Probably added earlier, this rifle (receiver) obviously stayed in German hands and was upgraded before the Polish barrel came into play, - an interesting rifle though its value (unusual characteristics) would go unappreciated on auction.
 
Thats a very nice rifle! Would love to have one like it. The r was probably added for record keeping reasons. The key hole I have a hard time believing. Check to make sure it's 8x57. I would not rebarrel it or part it out. Again very nice!
 
Thats a very nice rifle! Would love to have one like it. The r was probably added for record keeping reasons. The key hole I have a hard time believing. Check to make sure it's 8x57. I would not rebarrel it or part it out. Again very nice!

Why is it hard to believe a worn 75 year old barrel would keyhole? Boattail bullets are especially intolerant of excessive barrel wear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The rifle looks good, 28" of barrel and the way the target looks. I had a 44 mosin do this, the second time it went to the range there was mud on the target, I was skipping the round off the ground!
Check the chamber in the 50's it was common in the US to ream them out to 8mm/06 in order to use common 30/06 brass. It was also common in Europe too change the cal. to satisfy laws against private ownership.
It's a nice rifle and deserves another chances

PS check the ammo
 
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