I'm questioning the origin on "circle V" parts.

So I e been wondering this for a few months now. But it really only finally clicked when looking at a members rifle again. The hobby standard has been that circle v parts are bcd, gustloff. As they are so often seen on them. But Matts rifle, pictured here, seems to contradict this. An early early g43 with matching circle V marked parts.

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?23900-Early-G43-ac-44-Panel-Cut

Then I noticed a matching bolt assembly I have has Circle V locking lugs as well. The bolt is an earlier walther bolt. So if more circle v lugs can be found in other guns that predate gustloff production, or at least show a pattern of these showing up, could be a neat discovery.

Looking To seeing if anyone else has something that fits in this trend.

In another post we suspected that circle V parts may have been subcontracted from St. Etienne.

GunKraut said:

In another post we suspected that circle V parts may have been subcontracted from St. Etienne.

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I remember that. Hopefully we can dig up some more examples. Any way to link St Etienne to the circle v? Something else they made maybe.

Has anybody ever seen circle V on Gustloff products other than G43? I personally don't remember. Either circle V was only used on parts provided by a certain subcontractor or only at a certain Gustloff facility. I've observed circle V on these parts used in the assembly of G43 rifles: hammer, locking lugs, firing pin carrier.

I've got two bcd4 and a bcd43 and have not seen anything. The new k98k book should provide good data on that as far as k98k go.

GunKraut said:

I've observed circle V on these parts used in the assembly of G43 rifles: hammer, locking lugs, firing pin carrier.

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Circle V on the trigger of a early Walther g43

CanadianAR said:

I've got two bcd4 and a bcd43 and have not seen anything. The new k98k book should provide good data on that as far as k98k go.

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I believe the k98 models were assembled in Weimar where the G43 models were assembled in Buchenwald. Hence my initial thought it may be a facility related stamp rather than a assembler related stamp. In the meantime I've been tending more towards relating the stamp to parts subcontracted from St. Etienne. But, I could also be totally wrong on this one.

Rommel said:

Circle V on the trigger of a early Walther g43

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How early? Letter block and code?

Yes, different facility, but some suppliers could supply more then one place. I definitely think these show that it isn't a gustloff thing only, so will be interesting to see if a trend appears.

GunKraut said:

I believe the k98 models were assembled in Weimar where the G43 models were assembled in Buchenwald. Hence my initial thought it may be a facility related stamp rather than a assembler related stamp. In the meantime I've been tending more towards relating the stamp to parts subcontracted from St. Etienne. But, I could also be totally wrong on this one.

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My thoughts exactly. These parts have to be coming from a sub contractor. A sub contractor that provide the Buchenwald factory with many small parts. And they most have also supplied parts to Walter early on.

Thanks for posting Andrew, great info thread.

Rommel said:

Circle V on the trigger of a early Walther g43

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Interesting. Yes please provide the letter block.

I am curious what others will find. I suggest people check their BLM rifles also. You never know.

Good call Matt. I guess either or could have them.

I'm sure wiser more seasoned collectors ha e already questioned this, but I figured I'd try to get
Some people to talk about it. Haha.

Or it's a conspiracy created my the top collectors causing many younger guys to pass on "bad" rifles hahahaha hahahahaha

mdarnell19 said:

Interesting. Yes please provide the letter block.

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No letter block, believe it was made around Feb 1944.
I remember way back, I had a p38 that had a circle v
on the side of the magazine?

my G43 also has a circle V on the trigger.

7232b serial.

Rommel said:

No letter block, believe it was made around Feb 1944.
I remember way back, I had a p38 that had a circle v
on the side of the magazine?

Click to expand...

Good to know. My rifle that is linked in the first post is a no letter block. Is yours a Panel Cut? Thanks for sharing.

mdarnell19 said:

Is yours a Panel Cut?

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I wish it was!

Hello all, firstly G43's are not my main forte, however I am mainly a French military collector.

Here is my humble opinion of the "mystery."

I believe the circle "V" is actually of French origin, and is used to indicate which forge provided the steel, and stamped/milled the part. The French had a system of letter codes to indicate which Forge provided the steel. (Examples with A,B,C,D,E,F,G depending on origin of steel and time period,... etc.)

In this particular case, a "V" would indicate the steel came from the "Forges de Firminy." They stamped their steel produced parts with a "V", especially those parts intended for routing to St. Etienne factory.

The forges made French tanks, in particular the St.-Chamond (total POS), during WW1. They also made field guns, MG's and steel for numerous small arms parts such as triggers, barrels, etc.

They started using the circle "V" stamp before WW1 and it can be found on Berthiers, Lebel 1886 M93's, and many other French rifles that used barrels from the Firminy forges. However they used the stamp all throughout WW2.

During WW2, the forge was still making steel, for the Germans. The factory produced steel parts for German rifles, including triggers, bolt locking lugs, Hotchkiss & MG42 barrels, and numerous other small parts, the majority of which it sent to St. Etienne to be assembled. The factories were not far apart, and they would actually merge post WW2.

This marking can be found on many small German used parts, and it is my belief that these G43 parts, triggers, lugs etc. all came from the Firminy forge, and were routed to St. Etienne where they were assembled on various receivers/rifles.



Notice the V is virtually identical to the ones pictured on the German rifle parts. Note that its a bit elongated, simply due to the fact this particular one is struck on a cylinder angle of the barrel. Once flat, its the same stamp.

In conclusion, I believe these parts to be made in France, at the Firminy forge, for St. Etienne.

Hopefully this can put the "mystery" to rest.

If you are interested in French rifles, stamps, markings etc., some excellent books are the following:
Le Fusil Lebel - Alain Barreller/Jean Huon
La Grande Aventure des fusils reglementaires Francais 1866-1936 - Henri Vuillemin
If you don't speak French:
Jean Huon's Proud Promise is a great read.

Here's a partial listing of some steel maker codes - this is a early printing, 1913 to be precise. Some changes occurred during ww1 later, and into ww2. But for the most part is good.

Thanks for the research Paul. Definitely a connection. I'm hoping we see more and
Pte and can put together a pattern.

^ thanks.

I look foreward to seeing more of this particular stamp.

In theory, it should be also found on some K98 parts too - trigger guards, bolt lugs, and MG42 barrels, possibly also on other parts. (As some factory documents suggest they made those parts for the Germans.)

The challenge is, most people might overlook it simply thinking it's another proof of some sort, not realizing it could be French and of importance for research purposes.

Not one circle V on my ac44 d block.