ERMA / Haenel .22 Sub Caliber Conversion Kit for K98: Bolt Identification Help Needed

EL. 24: .22 sub caliber conversion kit, Haenel or. ERMA / Erfurt: Bolt Identification, PLEASE HELP

I am not unfamiliar with the EL. 24 and EL. 24 m. M. .22 sub caliber conversion kits for the K98 series rifles. I own two ERMA / Erfurt kits and one Haenel kit. However I need some help documenting components of the Haenel kit, most specifically the bolt.

The first question is: Does anyone have, or has anyone ever seen a Haenel Kit, (either the El. 24 or specifically the EL. 24 m. M.), with a Haenel logo on the receiver. BTW: The designation "EL. 24" is the official German Designation for the single shot version; while the designation "EL. 24 m. M." is the official designation for the magazine fed version. For clarity purposes, all three of my kits are the magazine fed version.

My two ERMA's, and any ERMA I have ever seen, have the ERMA logo on the receiver.

I have only ever seen one Haenel kit in person and two others in pictorial display. One of the pictorial displayed Haenel's is in this forum and also bears Kriegsmarine Markings. The other pictorial displayed Haenel kit, is or was, in the Royal Small Arms Museum in England. There is no Haenel logo on my receiver and I did not see a Haenel logo on the receivers of either of the other two pictorial displayed rifles. So i do not know if Haenel marked any of the receivers with the Haenel logo on the kits they produced!

Second: I am almost positive that every component of my kit was manufactured by Haenel with the exception of the bolt. However, I am reasonably certain even the bolt was manufactured by Haenel, (although it is not serial number matching).

I was told by the appraiser of one of the biggest auction houses In the U.S., (I won't mention the name of the auction house, but it's located near the Mississippi River and a major East - West Interstate that crosses the U.S.), that he believed the bolt was made by ERMA / Erfurt. I believe he based his opinion on the fact that the bolt bears the Waffenamt WaA51, associated with ERMA / Erfurt in '38. He low balled me on the appraisal! In fact, his appraisal for the entire kit was for $300.00 less than I was offered for the two Haenel magazines.

The reason I assert that I am almost positive about the entire kit, (less the bolt), being produced by Haenel is because: both magazines are marked with the Haenel Logo; the number "09", which is the last two digits of the serial number, and the "WaA51" Waffenamt. All other components of the kit are marked with either the full serial number; the last two digits of the serial number, or in the case of the tool, the last digit of the serial number. The same components: specifically the floor plate / magazine well; the receiver, and the barrel, all bear the same WaA51 Waffenamt. Also, the magazine well / floor plate and the magazines are not interchangeable, (or they are at least different), between Haenel's and ERMA / Erfurt's.

So we know WaA51 was the inspector at Haenel when this rifle was produced, (probably pre '38).

I should point out here that it was actually Haenel that held the original patent for these kits, and that Haenel produce a very limited number of these kits. If anyone know the specific number of kits Haenel produced, please share that information with me.

I think at some point around '37 or early '38, either by directive or choice, Haenle stopped producing the kits. (Haenel's contribution to the military was better utilized producing submachine guns.) Haenel had to have transferred or sold the productions rights and patents to ERMA / Erfurt. The reason I'm using "37 - '38 is because it was in '38 that inspector WaA51 is transferred from Haenel to the ERMA / Erfurt facility.

Keep in mind, these WaA badge numbers are assigned to real people, not facilities, or the item produced at a facility. It would be logical to think that along with the tooling, inventory, machinery and patents, WaA51 went to ERMA for a short period of time, probably to facilitate a smooth transition of production I do not know where WaA51 went after '38, nor do I know what his responsibilities were while at ERMA / Erfurt. .

I have read on the net, or (in a forum), that WaA37, WaA51, WaA77 and WaA280 inspector marks can be found on the kits produced by ERMA although I have never seen an ERMA kit with WaA37 or WaA51 markings. Every ERMA / Erfurt kit I've seen bears a combination of WaA77 & WaA280 markings.

If anyone knows of an ERMA / Erfurt manufactured "EL. 24" or "EL. 24 m.M." .22 sub caliber conversion kit for the Mauser K98 series rifle, with WaA51 markings, please bring it to my attention.

(BTW: Both Haenel and ERMA kits will fit the G98, K98, K98a, K98b and K98k rifles, as long as the rifle bore is 7.9mm or bigger at the narrowest point.)

Again, I do not know where WaA51 went after his brief stay at Erma / Erfurt in '38. I know WaA37 went on to Sauer; WaA77 went on to Styer and Radom and WaA280 went on to various Mauser facilities and I think ended up in France or Belgium inspecting pistols.

About the bolt: It bears a 4 digit serial number with a small letter "a" suffix, (1562a), which means it was the 11,561 made or accepted by the military. All parts of the bolt are matching to each other by serial number and the WaA51 Waffenamt. Keep in mind, some weapon manufactures produced 5,000 units per day. So 11,000 is a relatively small production run.

So, if Haenel made more than 11,561 kits, my bolt was probably made by Haenel. Conversely, if they made less than 11561 units, than the bolt was probably made by ERMA / Erfurt.

Or, if there is no known WaA51 Waffenamt on a "EL.24" or "EL. 24 m.M." bolt, than it is safe to assume my bolt was also made by Haenel.

Or if anyone knows of a Haenel EL. 24 or EL. 24 m.M. with a Haenel logo on the receiver, please let me know.

Thank you.

Comments from an informed collector:

Mr. Mauser: I saw your comments about the Erma and Haenel-made insert barrel units made for German M98 arms in the 1930s, and have such a unit that exhibits characteristics that might help clarify the evolution of this design.

My unit has a mismatched bolt and magazine unit and I will omit them from my notes. The unit was manufactured by Erma as an E.L. 24, evidently very early in the manufacturing history of this device. The name ERMA is found on the barrel, locking sleeve assembly, and receiver, as is the Waffenamt number 51. This inspector’s mark appears four times in the form of an eagle over 51, and once as a more detailed eagle over WaA51.

The Erma trademark or logo is not present, but the receiver does bear the model designation E.L. 24. The serial number, 301, is found on the receiver, and also appears on the barrel in the form “01”. The barrel also carries the bore gage reading of 5,42. A Reichswehr style proofmark (a simple downwing eagle) is found on the barrel and receiver. My best guess is that the missing bolt assembly would have carried the full serial number, the proofmark, and an inspector’s mark for Waffenamt 51.

In addition to the markings noted above, all of which I believe were applied at the time of manufacture of the unit, also are found an inspector’s mark consisting of an eagle over Su.75 and a stamp reading SuWw over 1933. These latter two markings relate to Spandau arsenal, the facility that (I am fairly certain) modified this unit from the single shot type to a five shot repeater. Since this work seems to have been done at Spandau in 1933 I’m assuming the actual date of manufacture of the unit was a few years earlier. I have never heard of another unit marked as this one is, but with a serial in the low hundreds it seems likely others do exist. Hope this will prove of interest and use to you. Bob

Thank you Bob. It's a start. I fear it will take some time before I get enough responses, and some deeper research on my part, before I'm able to see a clear picture. I did hear there is a gentleman in Germany almost ready to release a reference book on the ERMA versions. It's due this year in German and projected for release in English the following year. That should certainly shed light on the ERMA's and hopefully a little light on the Haenel"s

ERMA book

Loewe: I got this from Luftmacher:

"A book is now being printed by German author Holger Schlemeier which is the first-ever professional attempt at documenting Erma firearms and company history. The German language edition will be available this fall, and he plans to print an English language version of it next year for release here in the U.S. He covers a LOT of information on these inserts, including estimates of production figures."

I also have a communique from another forum member who named two or three other manufactures that produced these kits. I'll look through my notes and post their names. They were all unfamiliar to me.

EL 24 Haenel

BGcollector: Thank you

1ST) Thank you for the info.

Next) My components look exactly like your's: same eagles; Same Waffenamts; Same lack of Haenel Logo on the receiver!

Next) Is the only way we can identify them as being manufactured by Haenel via the Magazines bearing Haenel logos, and by matching the serial numbers and Waffenamt's on the magazines to the other components of the kit?

My bolt is not matching to the rest of the components in the kit! If you have a Haenel bolt, can you post or send me some pictures of your bolt? I'm trying to determine if my bolt is in fact a Haenel bolt. It is all matching to itself and carries the WaA51 Waffenamt.

Does the book pictured in your slide show show any pictures of a Haenel bolt, or does it show any pictures of an ERMA receiver without the ERMA Logo?

I'm going to go on Ebay and try to acquire that book, (as I have two Erma Kits).

Can you recommend a book on Haenel's.

Thanks again!

There is not much history on Haenel in print, beyond gleaning bits and pieces from many different sources. There is practically nothing in files for Haenel at the archive in Suhl, beyond finding correspondence relating to them in the files of OTHER firms which had dealings with them. Of the printed sources, most only exist in the German language and often repeat the same minimal information. The German patent records show nothing for Haenel concerning Einsteckläufe of their own design, or even of modifications for Erma's EL 24 (which likely would NOT have resulted in a patent mentioning the other firm's product). Other companies did make some barrel insert devices similar to this, in small numbers, and once Geipel had reformed his business in the west postwar he did manufacture these again from Erma. The "Haenel kits" to which you are referring, however, were almost certainly made of Erma-made inserts (with bolt) which then had Haenel-made magazines and floor plate magazine holder/adapter ADDED to convert them to multi-shot devices.
It was for many, many years a standard practice among German gun makers to please their customers by purchasing unfinished firearms of OTHER makers to finish on order. I don't think you will ever find any evidence of Haenel MANUFACTURING this particular insert kit on their own from scratch. If they made one of their own design, I am yet to see any evidence of that, either. Once an EL 24 had been proof tested originally, there would not have been a need to do so again after adapting one to use a magazine feed.

Steve

Link to a Museum Haenel Kit

BGcollector

I found the link to a Haenel Kit. I had previously stated incorrectly that there was a Hanel Conversion Kit on display at "The Royal Small Arms Museum" in london. The museum is actually know as "The Imperial War Museum - London".

They have the same kit as you and I. The photos lost clarity as I enlarged them, but I think I was able to determine that their kit also lacked the Haenel logo on the receiver. I was not able to determine any markings on the bolt.

I'm going to try and send them another Email and see if I can get them to verify there is no logo on their receiver, and I'm going to try to persuade them to sending me pictures of their bolt for comparison. (I tried this once before two or three years ago, but they never responded.)

Prior to a couple of weeks ago, this was the only other Haenel kit I has seen, either in person or pictures.

Their kit is missing the second magazine.