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Prussian Landesgendarmerie - Rural Police

Loewe

Moderator²
Staff member
Over the last few days a series of discussions took place that revived a subject that Craig Brown took an interest in and reading Storz "German military Rifles, From the Werder Rifle to the M/71.84 RIfle", pages 94-95, I thought this would be a good subject to develop here.

I would like to develop a database of known rifles and pistols, the LG (Landesgendarmerie - Rural Police) were armed at various times with military pistols (Reichsrevolvers), M.71/84's, Kar.88 and Kar.98a, below will represent the known pistols and rifles to date:

KAR.88:

1890 CGH 2041 a - L.G.1220 (Noll)
1890 CGH 4890 a - L.G.2979 (Noll)

1890 VCS 8738 - SR-Kar.88, L.G.2070 (slingband) (has “K” style marking on top of receiver)
1890 VCS 9735 - "." "S", L.G. 1788 (slingband) (has “K” style marking on top of receiver) (CB report)
1890 VCS 2634 b - 6.A.F.9.216 (linedout), L.G.4998 (Noll)


M1879:

1882 F.V. Dreyse 2822 (L.G.) (Noll)


M1883:

1893 Erfurt 4792 (L.G.) (canceled 1.G.A.E.24) (Noll)
F. Dreyse 4521 (L.G.) (cancelled C.T.S.1.48) (Noll)
VCS*CGH 7610 (L.G.) (cancelled 2.G.R.S.38) (Noll)

Attached find Storz partial page 94, it shows a Kar.88 to identify the Kar.88 sought here, Storz page 95 goes into more depth on the period and organization of the LG. In brief the LG was formed to police labor riots (coal miners), demonstrations and general unrest. Formed in 1890 they received priority in arms due to the importance the state (government) placed upon their assignment. Political (labor) unrest of this period was very disturbing to most western governments of the period, such protests occupied the minds of those in power and it played a part in the (military) conflicts of the period (as distractions).
 

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Craig Brown's comments on the Prussian Rural Police

One of two posts Craig made on the subject on Gunboards:

WaPrüf2
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
520 PostsPosted - 02/06/2004 : 08:47:42 AM


See: KAR 88- WHAT DO I HAVE elsewhere in this Forum.
L.G. in this case = (Prussian) Landesgendarmerie, deployed in the Imperial period in the Prussian royal lands and in the Weimar period in the former Prussian royal lands, operating under this designation until redesignated as Landesjägerei. The Kar 88 was issue to the L.G. beginning in 1890 and remained in service with them until 1928 when it was replaced by the Kar 98a in all former Prussian lands except those then still occupied by the French. Some Kar 88s issued to the L.G. were also marked on the receiver with a script K, significance so far not determined. Some were also marked 1920 and at least one survived not converted to the S bullet. A number of L.G. Kar 88s are listed in Noll (see below)
Source: Rolf Wirtgen, ed. HANDFEUERWAFFEN DER DEUTSCHEN GENDARMERIE UND POLIZEI DES 19. UND 20. JAHRHUNDERTS:...KATALOG ZUR SONDERAUSSTELLUNG... Koblenz, Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung, 1999
***
Care should be taken in interpreting L.G. The abbreviation has multiple meanings which vary with the period of use and agency employing it. I have, for example, recently noted a number of Landesgendarmerie spiked helmets sold at high prices as Leibgendarmerie helmets based on an L.G. stamp. Essential guides to unit marks are:
Görtz & Bryans, GERMAN SMALL ARMS MARKINGS FROM AUTHENTIC SOURCES, Marceline, Walsworth, 1997
Noll, THE IMPERIAL GERMAN REGIMENTAL MARKING, Marceline, Walsworth, 1998 (this I think still available directly from J. Noll at: nopubl@earthlink.net)
Also useful are Jan Still's books on Imperial and Weimar Lugers.

Edited by - WaPrüf2 on 02/06/2004 08:53:28 AM


gat408
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
273 PostsPosted - 02/06/2004 : 12:06:40 PM


Interesting history lesson on these beautiful little carbines. Thanks


Chris
RVN 1965
USMC
100% combat disabled


madboy357
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member


USA
807 PostsPosted - 02/06/2004 : 1:13:07 PM


Hey WaPruf2, you seem to know this stuff quite well. Any thoughts on this L.Z.A. marking on a 98a buttplate. This a stock only, post '15 and no obvious signs of Weimar rework. Any ideas? Ken

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WaPrüf2
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
520 PostsPosted - 02/09/2004 : 07:57:23 AM


I can find nothing in the source available to me which explains this L.Z.A. stamp.
 
Craig Brown's comments on the Prussian Rural Police #2

john s mosby
Gunboards Member


USA
80 PostsPosted - 02/25/2004 : 6:16:12 PM


I just found the great posting by WaPruf2 on the LG marking. I just bought a nice carbine at a gun auction here in Pa last weekend. It's marked LG 2266 on the barrel band. It doesn't have the S stamp on the receiver, it has the script K on top of the receiver. It's marked on the receiver, V.C. Shilling, SUHL, 1890. Every part on this gun matches the receiver, the bore is excellent.
My question is, what kind of unit was the Landesgendarmerie? And what does the 2266 stand for?
Again, what a great posting by WaPruf2.

WaPrüf2
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
520 PostsPosted - 02/26/2004 : 09:34:11 AM


Think, in U.S. terms, of the Landesgendarmerie as more-or-less equivalent to today's state police.
The number following the L.G. is a property number.
You might want to take a look at: www.kukri.de



Sven
Gunboards Super Premium Member


393 PostsPosted - 02/26/2004 : 12:33:49 PM


More-or-less. They were combatants. In wartimes parts of them and parts of the cavalry (hussars) formed the Feldgendarmerie (MP).


Edited by - Sven on 02/26/2004 12:34:38 PM


WaPrüf2
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
520 PostsPosted - 02/26/2004 : 3:06:08 PM


Sven: Primary function as police. Through 1918 some mobilised as Feldgendarmerie, usually forming a cadre unit to which personnel from regular units were detailed. There were two types: mounted (which in wartime worked w cavalry units) and dismounted (which in wartime worked with infantry units). Not sure what their mobilisation status was 1919- ca. 1935; probably not allowed military duties under provisions of Versailles Treaty (they would have constituted a reserve, which was not permitted); during WW2 their successor organisation was sometimes called up in closed units and sometimes as Army Feldgendarmerie.
In 1914 they were the only German units deployed in their peacetime uniforms, which led to confusion with enemy personnel and eventually resulted in them getting feldgrau uniforms (about 1915/16, I think) when on active duty as Feldgendarmerie.


Edited by - WaPrüf2 on 02/26/2004 3:08:37 PM



Sven
Gunboards Super Premium Member


393 PostsPosted - 02/26/2004 : 11:15:53 PM


@ WaPrü2:

Please read my post in addition to yours. I know that Landgendarmerie (some times also called Landesgendarmerie) normally (in times of peace) made service as some kind of State Police, BUT they were also fulltime combatants, allocated to the Ministry of War and the Ministry of the Interior (uniform, arms, equipment, military juristication (provost system) on the one hand (MoW) - and on the other they get their wage and their orders (in times of peace) from the MoI).

"...There were two types: mounted (which in wartime worked w cavalry units) and dismounted (which in wartime worked with infantry units)..."

That´s the real life of 1914, but it´s also against the regulations ("Gendarmerie-Patrouillen bei den Manövern", 10 june 1890), so they were called Hilfsgendarm or Hilfsfeldjäger.

Sven.


WaPrüf2
Gunboards Super Premium Member


USA
520 PostsPosted - 02/27/2004 : 08:30:42 AM


Sven: I think we are splitting hairs here. Point I'm trying to make is that in the real-life terms of the average L-Gendarme the only time he performed what we would think of these days as "military duties" after 1871 and before 1914 would have been if he was called up for annual maneuvers. He would have spent most of his time functioning as a civil policeman.
I did a little fast checking last night; looks like the LG called up in 1914 were discharged in 1917 and their duties as FG continued by regular army FG units of one kind or another. There were a number of local command FG-type units established 1914-1918; ones I know of offhand were in Antwerp and in the occupied Ukraine.
I'll have some specific references FYI added to this topic on Monday or Tuesday of next week.


Edited by - WaPrüf2 on 02/27/2004 08:35:49 AM



Sven
Gunboards Super Premium Member


393 PostsPosted - 02/27/2004 : 12:05:33 PM


Sorry that I just try to answer a question.

That never happens twice.


john s mosby
Gunboards Member


USA
80 PostsPosted - 02/27/2004 : 2:08:50 PM


My thanks to both of you guys for all this great information. It's neat to learn all this about the carbine. This web site is great. I have lot to learn about German guns.

John
 
More Craig Brown comments

Kar 88s and variants in German police and customs service a/o 27.XI.11

My main source is: Wirtgen, Handfeuerwaffen der deutschen Gendarmerie und Polizei des 19. und 20. Jahrhunderts, Koblenz, 188, passim.

Standard type K88s: Introduced for Prussian Gendarmerie March 1890. In service until June 1928 when replaced by the K98a in all areas except those then occupied by the French. Example illustrated: V.C.Schilling, 1890, SN 9735; S on ring, K above the S*,
Sling band: L.G. 1788.

*I have observed the K previously on a sporterised K88. Wirtgen doesn’t know what it indicates, nor do I.
See Noll, 1998, for more L.G. K88s. For some reason I can’t find one
 
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1890 vcs 8738 l.g.2070

Pictures of a LG VCS
 

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