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Thread: "Teachable Moment"

  1. #1
    RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual heavy_mech's Avatar
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    Default "Teachable Moment"

    For quite some time I've been concerned about forgers and fraudsters lurking on sites such as this to filter through the comments and research in order to improve their fakes. Balancing that concern I think this needs to be shared, both because IMHO he did a great job putting it together but also because it shows clearly that they're getting better at what they do. Money will do this.

    If you're interested the post is about a 1939 Borsigwalde currently up for auction. http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthrea...achable-Moment

    Mods - If direct linking this is inappropriate please remove the link. I considered not adding the link.

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    Thanks for the lesson....I've got a 1939/243, 7172s, and there are a number of differences between my legit 'bring back' and the rifle for sale....thanks again.


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    Senior Member Pat's Avatar
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    Not this seller in question, but I know of one Gunbroker seller who has a forum account who actively seeks out pics and info on uncommon-rare variations. They've been called out before on their descriptions and claims of authenticity, but drive on with their 'style of business.' I love the Picture Reference Forum here dearly, but I have concerns about how it can be used as a sort of template to fool some or most, but not all.

    As far as not wanting to link directly, this is easily remedied by inserting the word 'DOT' for the dot before 'com,' like this:
    http://ww2weaponsforumDOTcom/showthr...achable-Moment

    Pat
    For My Fallen Brothers:
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    Senior Member mauser99's Avatar
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    Nothing new here. I can tell you from experience there have been teams of fakers doing bolt matching for some time. I remember pre-internet buying a bsw off the gun list with a bolt that wasn't quite right ? No forums back then and this seller use to post lots of k98's in gun list. I think Bruce and I had discussions of the Florida humper.

    Then the NY old boys who are all now dead. Then waffenstadt Pittsburg who is still in business.

    Fat scotty knows of a artisan who does work as well... They are out there guys and you always have to be on guard for the next best fake.

    Forums are the best defense saving yourself a lot of money !

    This rifle being discussed could have come from CB's collection ? As this dealer bought tons of his stuff. We have all been fooled in the past by one thing or another the thing to do is learn by mistakes and not to make the same one twice.

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    Member Cololab's Avatar
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    Although there are many hurdles to overcome (knowledge, intent, etc.) if one were to pursue legal action against these fakers, the dollar threshold for federal offenses such as mail/wire fraud are being reached; along with various state theft by deception statutes. Civil fraud statutes also apply.

    Stating the obvious, the costs of pursuing these forgers, and a commensurate likely lack of interest by law enforcement officials, probably makes any attempts at legal action a fool's errand. I have heard of some civil actions for fraud, but I can't cite any particular incidents. Sadly, in all but the most high dollar, egregious instances, these people are relatively immune from any legal consequences.

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    Senior Member GunKraut's Avatar
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    Although judges will most likely not condone a faker's business, they may still take a grim look at the buyer's lack of responsibility in the age of the internet. With Google at your fingertips, stupidity will serve less and less as a good excuse, especially if you located and bought the humpstrosity with the help of Google and the internet.

  7. #7
    Community Organizer Hambone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavy_mech View Post
    For quite some time I've been concerned about forgers and fraudsters lurking on sites such as this to filter through the comments and research in order to improve their fakes. Balancing that concern I think this needs to be shared, both because IMHO he did a great job putting it together but also because it shows clearly that they're getting better at what they do. Money will do this.

    If you're interested the post is about a 1939 Borsigwalde currently up for auction. http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthrea...achable-Moment

    Mods - If direct linking this is inappropriate please remove the link. I considered not adding the link.
    Thanks HM, WW2weapons is a "brother" site, so all good. Same guys here as there. Direct linking is appropriate to any site if it helps us, and that one clearly does
    “Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose.” - Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, 1933-1945

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    RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual heavy_mech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    ..I have concerns about how it can be used as a sort of template to fool some or most, but not all.
    Yes, you and me both. I think about that often, especially when critiquing specifics. I started to speak about the suspect piece but not say exactly what's bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    ..As far as not wanting to link directly, this is easily remedied by inserting the word 'DOT' for the dot before 'com,' like this:
    http://ww2weaponsforumDOTcom/showthr...achable-Moment
    Thanks for the tip! Like spelling a number of a posted phone number.

  9. #9
    RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual heavy_mech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauser99 View Post
    ..This rifle being discussed could have come from CB's collection ? As this dealer bought tons of his stuff.
    I'd heard that. I wondered where he got all these 98k's all of a sudden. Too bad about the lineage of humpers. I'm not so surprised though.

    Quote Originally Posted by mauser99 View Post
    We have all been fooled in the past by one thing or another the thing to do is learn by mistakes and not to make the same one twice.
    This is the best advice. It's sucks to get burned once but continually making the same mistakes is...

  10. #10
    RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual heavy_mech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
    Thanks HM, WW2weapons is a "brother" site, so all good. Same guys here as there. Direct linking is appropriate to any site if it helps us, and that one clearly does
    Thanks. I thought that to be so but usually it's just referred to as 'Dave's site' or something. It was definitely a good piece that deserved a wider audience.

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