Third Party Press

"Teachable Moment"

heavy_mech

RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
For quite some time I've been concerned about forgers and fraudsters lurking on sites such as this to filter through the comments and research in order to improve their fakes. Balancing that concern I think this needs to be shared, both because IMHO he did a great job putting it together but also because it shows clearly that they're getting better at what they do. Money will do this.

If you're interested the post is about a 1939 Borsigwalde currently up for auction. http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthread.php?16989-243-1939-Teachable-Moment

Mods - If direct linking this is inappropriate please remove the link. I considered not adding the link.
 
Thanks for the lesson....I've got a 1939/243, 7172s, and there are a number of differences between my legit 'bring back' and the rifle for sale....thanks again.[emoji106]


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Not this seller in question, but I know of one Gunbroker seller who has a forum account who actively seeks out pics and info on uncommon-rare variations. They've been called out before on their descriptions and claims of authenticity, but drive on with their 'style of business.' I love the Picture Reference Forum here dearly, but I have concerns about how it can be used as a sort of template to fool some or most, but not all.

As far as not wanting to link directly, this is easily remedied by inserting the word 'DOT' for the dot before 'com,' like this:
http://ww2weaponsforumDOTcom/showthread.php?16989-243-1939-Teachable-Moment

Pat
 
Nothing new here. I can tell you from experience there have been teams of fakers doing bolt matching for some time. I remember pre-internet buying a bsw off the gun list with a bolt that wasn't quite right ? No forums back then and this seller use to post lots of k98's in gun list. I think Bruce and I had discussions of the Florida humper.

Then the NY old boys who are all now dead. Then waffenstadt Pittsburg who is still in business.

Fat scotty knows of a artisan who does work as well... They are out there guys and you always have to be on guard for the next best fake.

Forums are the best defense saving yourself a lot of money !

This rifle being discussed could have come from CB's collection ? As this dealer bought tons of his stuff. We have all been fooled in the past by one thing or another the thing to do is learn by mistakes and not to make the same one twice.
 
Although there are many hurdles to overcome (knowledge, intent, etc.) if one were to pursue legal action against these fakers, the dollar threshold for federal offenses such as mail/wire fraud are being reached; along with various state theft by deception statutes. Civil fraud statutes also apply.

Stating the obvious, the costs of pursuing these forgers, and a commensurate likely lack of interest by law enforcement officials, probably makes any attempts at legal action a fool's errand. I have heard of some civil actions for fraud, but I can't cite any particular incidents. Sadly, in all but the most high dollar, egregious instances, these people are relatively immune from any legal consequences.
 
Although judges will most likely not condone a faker's business, they may still take a grim look at the buyer's lack of responsibility in the age of the internet. With Google at your fingertips, stupidity will serve less and less as a good excuse, especially if you located and bought the humpstrosity with the help of Google and the internet.
 
For quite some time I've been concerned about forgers and fraudsters lurking on sites such as this to filter through the comments and research in order to improve their fakes. Balancing that concern I think this needs to be shared, both because IMHO he did a great job putting it together but also because it shows clearly that they're getting better at what they do. Money will do this.

If you're interested the post is about a 1939 Borsigwalde currently up for auction. http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthread.php?16989-243-1939-Teachable-Moment

Mods - If direct linking this is inappropriate please remove the link. I considered not adding the link.

Thanks HM, WW2weapons is a "brother" site, so all good. Same guys here as there. Direct linking is appropriate to any site if it helps us, and that one clearly does :thumbsup:
 
..I have concerns about how it can be used as a sort of template to fool some or most, but not all.

Yes, you and me both. I think about that often, especially when critiquing specifics. I started to speak about the suspect piece but not say exactly what's bad.

..As far as not wanting to link directly, this is easily remedied by inserting the word 'DOT' for the dot before 'com,' like this:
http://ww2weaponsforumDOTcom/showthread.php?16989-243-1939-Teachable-Moment

Thanks for the tip! Like spelling a number of a posted phone number.
 
..This rifle being discussed could have come from CB's collection ? As this dealer bought tons of his stuff.

I'd heard that. I wondered where he got all these 98k's all of a sudden. Too bad about the lineage of humpers. I'm not so surprised though.

We have all been fooled in the past by one thing or another the thing to do is learn by mistakes and not to make the same one twice.

This is the best advice. It's sucks to get burned once but continually making the same mistakes is...
 
Thanks HM, WW2weapons is a "brother" site, so all good. Same guys here as there. Direct linking is appropriate to any site if it helps us, and that one clearly does :thumbsup:

Thanks. I thought that to be so but usually it's just referred to as 'Dave's site' or something. It was definitely a good piece that deserved a wider audience.
 
Although there are many hurdles to overcome (knowledge, intent, etc.) if one were to pursue legal action against these fakers, the dollar threshold for federal offenses such as mail/wire fraud are being reached; along with various state theft by deception statutes. Civil fraud statutes also apply.

Stating the obvious, the costs of pursuing these forgers, and a commensurate likely lack of interest by law enforcement officials, probably makes any attempts at legal action a fool's errand. I have heard of some civil actions for fraud, but I can't cite any particular incidents. Sadly, in all but the most high dollar, egregious instances, these people are relatively immune from any legal consequences.

To be honest I don't think the seller in this case did the work he is just a flipper. I think it may have come from CB's collection ? possibly ? Id have to look back and study the auction listings..

Regardless, it pays to be vigilant and it pays to be engaged and study the topic you want to be evolved in.

I have seen many dive head 1st into something and amass nice collection then suddenly their out ? It takes real dedication to stick with one item and really master it if that's ever possible..

This forum is the place to start if k98k's are your primary focus.
 
To be honest I don't think the seller in this case did the work he is just a flipper..

Agreed. In fact I'm positive he didn't do them. However 'someone' or likely multiple 'someones' is feeding the supply chain. Take Classsic last 2 batches. All of them just fell out of the sky? All eerily similar looking?? All humped? I don't believe the 'private collection' bs either.
 
Agreed. In fact I'm positive he didn't do them. However 'someone' or likely multiple 'someones' is feeding the supply chain. Take Classsic last 2 batches. All of them just fell out of the sky? All eerily similar looking?? All humped? I don't believe the 'private collection' bs either.

I know for a fact that's not BS... He bought a shite ton of stuff from Craig browns lifetime collection. I was there. All you have to do is the detective work. Search amoskeag's last 3 sales they are all there..
 
Agreed. In fact I'm positive he didn't do them. However 'someone' or likely multiple 'someones' is feeding the supply chain. Take Classsic last 2 batches. All of them just fell out of the sky? All eerily similar looking?? All humped? I don't believe the 'private collection' bs either.

The scary thing is how good the fakes are getting, and the fact that they can generate them in quantity. That whole batch of Classic guns came from one "factory" to be sure, and that means someone is doing this regularly and in quantity.

I sound like a broken record but this type of thing not only is unethical and unfair and wrong but in the end it ruins legitimate, honest rifles and parts, and it is possible that many, many beginners own faked rifles and do not know it. SOMEONE buys these, they end up somewhere!! Those unwitting buyers may someday try to (have to?) sell them, and unknowingly pass along a fake. There's so many reasons not to do this but they are outweighed by the reason why they do it: money. Why make 300 bucks selling an imported R/C mixmaster when you can make 3000 after converting it into an all matching sniper rifle?!?

It's a shame that the law wouldn't go hard after these guys, it's not that big a deal as far as they are concerned. Besides, caveat emptor right? All us guys with enough spending money to play in this world deserve it if we get burned now and then, is probably how they'd see it.

They likely ARE here lurking in order to learn how to make better fakes. I wish we could stop it or make it cost prohibitive or something. Other than calling out the fakes and tracking them, what else CAN we do?


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Getting ??? This is old work. There have been bands of guys doing the for the past 20+ years. Its just not wide spread or talked about enough IMHO.
 
I'm just glad of the amount effort Keith put it too this info. This really is a good teachable lesson for the new collectors in the field. I always tell new K98k collectors do your research first. It was just a few weeks ago at the 1500 show a new collector of these was prepared too spend big money. Of course knew nothing about them.

Told him your best bit read the books and get some knowledge under your belt. Or be prepared too be possible burnt for alot of money.
 
If you go to the WW2dotcom thread and click the auction link scroll down to his other auctions. All the guns, not just K98ks but any other all have the same metal and wood finish, all of them.

The great teaching OP translates to me as being way more than I could spot with various makers and changes as some here can spot.

I am one of those that long ago bought a humped K98k and then put it on GB to find out it was humped and I was beat up pretty well for it so it not only hurts the legitimate hobby it can lead to not wanting to be involved at all.
That was not the last mistake I made but if I do get one I post pictures and ask before I offer it online so if it is humped I can say what is wrong.

It would be nice if this fraud could be prosecuted but as mentioned they don't care
 
Guys, I've been at this since about 1981, when I was a kid. Yes, there is humping as there always has been. If one is collecting things that aren't humped then one is collecting worthless things. There is no humping to speak of in the collecting of cigarette butts, pebbles, dirt, cat turds, and things like this.

I personally am not aware of any area of militaria collecting (other than perhaps Bugme's US M1 helmet site) which has two sites (I don't mean Gunboards anymore) which so objectively and openly supports the hobby with more of the most knowledgeable people in the world helping for the asking than K98k collecting right now. Yes, some people are getting ripped off. But yes, right now some people are trying to adjust blades on running lawnmowers and working on a light switches without throwing the breaker. If you want to collect K98ks and are willing to learn and know how to learn, you won't get burned by coming here.

I'll also say that the faking is getting good but it is not at the level of putting one over on the crew here. I doubt it ever will be.
 
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right now some people are trying to adjust blades on running lawnmowers and working on a light switches without throwing the breaker.

So I'm asking for it.. :googlie

..it is not at the level of putting one over on the crew here. I doubt it ever will be.

This is the truth brother. The depth and breadth of knowledge is literally awesome. Maybe in the fine arts arena do you find such a well documented, long-lived base of information. I'm truly humbled sometimes.
 
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