Third Party Press

Flynaked's SCW 1918 Oberspree in Detail...

pzjgr

EOD - bombs and bullets
So I had the pleasure of meeting Flynaked this past Friday....since, with amazing coincidence, we live about 5 miles apart :happy0180:

After a little horse trading, I wrenched his 1918 Oberspree SCW gun from his hands...

I took it apart, and cleaned it up a bit, and took detailed shots of everything, in ridiculous detail, hoping to glean additional insight into the history of this rifle...

So, the bolt...

The body is covered with some fine pitting, obviously ground and renumbered to match, s/n 1291....also took pic of root, to maybe determine original maker...not the extractor matches the s/n on the rest of the bolt parts, 97. Everything (except extractor) seems to have been ground and re-stamped.
 

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Trigger guard has original s/n struck, and re-stamped 1291.

Floor Plate....original number struck, and renumbered with last 3, 291....why not the full number? Don't know, lazy stamper?

Sear numbered 91, seems to be original...

Ejector box has 2 overstamped to make it "291"

Follower renumbered, but that doesn't match the gun....

Front sight numbered 91....

Rear sight, upgraded to "Gew 98M" leaf sight, standard S42/G markings, and Pre WaA Acceptances...
 

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Stock group has some of the most interesting marks, IMHO...weird stuff on buttplate and butt...

Externally, buttplate has original, unmessed with s/n, and acceptance...

Internally, in a first I've seen, it is marked in Roman Numerals, XVIII, 18, and has three strange punch marks...

And on the butt, it is also marked XVIII, and three punch marks....

Any thoughts on these markings????

Externally, right below the s/n on the receiver it is marked 1291 to match.

Otherwise stock has original s/n in channel, 2282, and the nicely done "A" externally on the side of the butt...and (raised, not stamped anymore) a small "s" and 2282 on the keel.

Does the "A" have any meaning (well, known meaning that is?)

Handguard is numbered 4142 internally, nothing else.

Bayonet lug is marked with s/n 18, and an acceptance, and is not original to the stock....
 

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Bands...Front band, mismatched, but Gew band...

Rear band, mismatched, but has SuWW 1935 and SU4 re-work marks...

Pictured "barrel band" in front of rear sight, which Loewe explained in Flynaked's original post on this one....

The original s/n on barrel and receiver have been scrubbed, and its been re-stamped 1291 in both locations. The receiver also has a lot of fine pitting which matches the pitting on the bolt body...unfortunately, wonder how that happened, the rest seem relatively untouched.
 

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I did have a spare Gew 98 length cleaning rod to finish it off....

I will get some good overall all put together pics outside in natural light when I get back home...

I like it very much since its a rarer manufacturer/year...and it has some history behind it, and hopefully was used against those commie Republicans in Spain....

So, questions from me for those who know, and of course our font of knowledge on WWI and inter-war stuff, Loewe....

Exactly what points to it being sent to Spain, is it the type of renumbering and placement? My limited exposure to SCW guns, most seemed to have had crests/manufacturer stamps well scrubbed...

I think I understand, as finished at WOK, it would have had the Lange sight, and went through the "98M" upgrades, then sometime after was sent to spain.

Whats with the XVIII and punch marks on buttplate and internal butt?

Does the "A" have any known meaning, or just bored Spanish soldier?

I assume these saw pretty hard use in Spain....what on this one is done by the Germans in the upgrade, and what was done in Spain?
 

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Wow Mike, that is odd under the buttplate! I often neglect taking off BP's, I need to more! Yes this rifle certainly has a rich history indeed!
 
Well thank goodness he lives so close. In lieu of how he flies, let's hope he didn't drive naked:laugh:
 
Here is a thread from Gunboards on a SCW 98M that was chopped by Interarms (which apparently was common)... but interestingly, look at the 4th post down, same sort of "A" in stock side....
 

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The rifle is a wartime rifle, made at Oberspree during the war, probably near the end of the war, say August-September or so, though the Berlin firms suffered from unrest/strikes more than the other makers, so no way to tell the normal way (dividing totals known by 12 months). The p-block is right in the middle of production, though it is probable that this is later than it seems because 1917's probably lingered well into 1918 production (1917 serialing continued w/o rollover into 1918). It is also known that DWM sent components/parts to Oberspree during 1918 because they were dropping rifle production. (Mauser Oberndorf also supplied components to WOK/Oberspree throughout the war, Jon Speed has recorded deliveries to this sister firm)

The scrub/reserial is almost certainly done by the Spaniards, but at least they left the suffix, which is the most important thing. Without the suffix the rifle would be pointless to my work...

As for the assorted markings ("A" and MP/8 ordnance bomb) and the other typical Spaniard traits, like serialing the stock under the receiver serial, I doubt anyone really knows the meaning or purpose. John Wall took a keen interest in such things, he spoke to Spanish collectors about such things and all you can do is catalog the variations looking for patterns, which I am sure John Wall did, but all his work is lost to us today.. The man was a thorough researcher, best I knew, - across a wider breadth of topics, with a diverse catalog of articles and documents. Even if his work could be recovered, finding a man to follow through on it would be near impossible, John Wall was unique... anyway, what John once wrote was that the MP/8 bomb was probably a post war (post civil war, very probably post WWII) ordnance acceptance for a rework, some suggest it was a rearsenal prior to the sale to Sam Cummings, though no one really knows, at least 10 years ago. Gunboards isn't work much these days, but TP and JPS still do good work on Gunboards-Mauser, if there is an answer your best chance is there.

Odds are good this rifle was reworked/upgraded by the Germans in 1935-1936 and was sent to the Nationalists (Franco), - large numbers of small arms were sent, none for free, Hitler sent them on credit but expected full payment (which Franco paid before WWII ended), and this was never written off as was done by Mussolini, who was far more sympathetic to Spain than Hitler ever was... the civil war for Hitler was more of fighting communists and getting nice with Mussolini (who Hitler courted early on, ridiculously so, almost embarrassingly so at times, though it paid off in 1938 and during the early stages of war) than anything else, much of the crap that passes for history on the internet is pathetic. If you can find General JFC Fuller's work on the subject, it is quite good, - find work by military men, avoid propagandist politicians, especially ones that worked for FDR, like Claude Bowers, the US Ambassador to Spain, like FDR a communist sympathizer. Most collectors rely on Arms for Spain by Howson, he is a republican sympathizer (which is common to most books on the SCW - Franco & Hitler is another), but is more objective than some. Howson doesn't go into good details on small arms or rifles, but does give some details. Actually, I have read or reviewed several others, and none give meat and potatoes details we would want as collectors. Like most books they try to appeal to a broad audience and try to take a popular view (popular in the aftermath of WWII, which is quite different than the view by Fuller and military men of 1936-1938, - after WWII anything Hitler could be linked too, even so superficially as Franco, was automatically evil, even though Franco played his cards perfectly during the war, - he was in a tight spot 1939-1942 and I'd like to hear how anyone could have done better...)

Anyway, nice rifle as far as a SCW goes, as you mentioned, most were brutalized in the 1960's, chopped or worse, and many were quite hard to find variations, if old Sam Cummings hadn't been a businessman looking to make a buck more than a collector (back then there were few collectors) we would be better off today.

Below is an early auction result for this rifle:

Waffenwerke Oberspree -- 1918 GEW-98 Mauser. S/42G code. Not Import. C&R.
Category: Firearms : Curios & Relics -- Item# 8477924

Winner:thisoldman (view feedback)
Current Price: $400.00
Quantity:1 lot
Auction Type:Basic Style
NRA Grade:Good
History:37 Bid(s) ($0.01 starting bid)
Seller:BR-549 (view feedback)
(view this seller's auctions)

Location (State):ME
Auction Start:02/10/2008 at 15:53:42
Auction Close:02/17/2008 at 15:53:42
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Buyer Tip: If you're the High Bidder above, you're the High Bidder in this auction. All Auctions are conducted in Pacific Standard Time.
Description
Seller's Description:
Up for auction is this WW1 GEW-98 Mauser, dated 1918, in the .8mm-caliber. 29-1/2-inch barrel. Good bore, with good rifling, but dark in the grooves. Metal finish is good, with light rust spots, and light to moderate pitting. Stock showing serval scratches, dings, and gouges from heavy use, but no serious damage. Serial number-1291 matches on the stock, barrel, receiver, and bolt. Some of the bolt parts, bands, and butt plate numbers do not match. The floorplate serial number has been restamped to #1291. Rifle is not import marked. Please see photos for all the markings, and e-mail questions. FFL required, or a C&R is OK for this rifle. Please be advised that we have visually inspected this rifle, but we have not test fired it. As with any firearm, please have them checked out by a competent gunsmith before attempting to fire them. Please be aware of all firearm related laws in your state before bidding. Remember that ignorance of the law is no excuse. This rifle carries the usual 3-day non-firing inspection. Returns accepted with a full refund, less shipping cost. We do not end our auctions early, every one gets a fair shot. Thanks for looking, and good luck bidding.
Payment and Shipping Instructions:
Shipping on this rifle in the continental United States will be $25.00, this includes insurance and confirmation. Sorry, no international shipping. We hold gun until personal checks clear. With money orders, or cashiers check, we ship within 48-hours. Residents of Maine must add the 5% sales tax or provide a valid resale certificate. Thanks.


Bidding History for Item #8477924
1918 GEW-98 Mauser. S/42G code. Not Import. C&R.

Bidder Bid Quantity Comments Date/Time Bid Posted
thisoldman$400.001-no comment-3:53 PM Sun Feb 17
xjking$399.001-proxy bid-3:53 PM Sun Feb 17
xjking$354.001-proxy bid-3:52 PM Sun Feb 17
1911A1 Enthusiast$353.001-no comment-3:52 PM Sun Feb 17
xjking$334.991-proxy bid-3:52 PM Sun Feb 17
1911A1 Enthusiast$333.991-no comment-3:52 PM Sun Feb 17
xjking$319.011-proxy bid-3:51 PM Sun Feb 17
havvey$318.011-no comment-3:51 PM Sun Feb 17
xjking$311.001-no comment-9:31 AM Sun Feb 17
luan$310.001-proxy bid-9:31 AM Sun Feb 17
luan$304.001-proxy bid-2:39 PM Sat Feb 16
1911A1 Enthusiast$303.001-no comment-2:39 PM Sat Feb 16
luan$251.001-no comment-6:08 PM Fri Feb 15
thisoldman$250.001-proxy bid-6:08 PM Fri Feb 15
thisoldman$236.001-proxy bid-8:39 AM Fri Feb 15
1911A1 Enthusiast$235.001-no comment-8:39 AM Fri Feb 15
thisoldman$231.001-no comment-2:00 PM Thu Feb 14
YUKON75$230.001-proxy bid-2:00 PM Thu Feb 14
YUKON75$187.001-proxy bid-10:19 PM Wed Feb 13
1911A1 Enthusiast$186.001-no comment-10:19 PM Wed Feb 13
YUKON75$185.001-proxy bid-5:15 AM Tue Feb 12
EDMAN2$184.001-no comment-5:15 AM Tue Feb 12
YUKON75$163.001-proxy bid-5:15 AM Tue Feb 12
EDMAN2$162.001-no comment-5:15 AM Tue Feb 12
YUKON75$132.131-proxy bid-12:54 AM Tue Feb 12
nibbs$131.131-no comment-12:54 AM Tue Feb 12
YUKON75$127.881-proxy bid-7:23 PM Mon Feb 11
fredrsv1000s$126.881-no comment-7:23 PM Mon Feb 11
YUKON75$79.981-no comment-9:53 AM Mon Feb 11
WaterEagle$78.981-proxy bid-9:53 AM Mon Feb 11
WaterEagle$66.001-proxy bid-8:13 PM Sun Feb 10
chadtram$65.001proxy bid8:13 PM Sun Feb 10
WaterEagle$56.001-proxy bid-8:12 PM Sun Feb 10
chadtram$55.001proxy bid8:12 PM Sun Feb 10
WaterEagle$41.011-proxy bid-7:17 PM Sun Feb 10
C.A.W.$40.011-no comment-7:17 PM Sun Feb 10
WaterEagle$0.011-no comment-5:55 PM Sun Feb 10
$0.01Starting Price3:53 PM Sun Feb 10

Click the BACK button on your browser to return to the auction.
 
Thanks Paul for the always outstanding reply and info...I do really appreciate it.

At least it wasn't chopped up, and while its not straight up German, I like the history behind it, in addition to the Maker/Year (I am a code collector, and would always grab a code I don't have even if it has issues if the price is reasonable, even if its just a placeholder...I figure I can always upgrade).

The thing I find most intriguing is the markings under the butt....being the same on both butt and buttplate, the XVIII and three punches, there has to be a reason, and just to match up the two, it seems a bit overkill....any thoughts on that? Or just a mystery that can't be answered?
 
I see no association to a German practice, so I assume its SCW or after. As far as I know, there is little to no research done on these and even if that was worthwhile, the challenges are significant. Almost all such rifles have been through Sam Cummings hack shop and differentiating Spanish rework from Sam's business model would be near impossible. Your rifle is actually about as good as these get... most are chopped up junk.
 
Thanks....boy, wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy them up back then...

The owner of Jackson's Armory here in Dallas dove up to the warehouse back in the 60's, and IIRC was buying his choice of 98k's from the piles for $25 each...he bought $1000 worth, bought them back here, sold them for nice profit, and went back and bought more....that's how he got started in the gun business. You want to see some amazing guns, stop into the store sometime....oh my god, if I hit the lottery, I am dropping a lot of money there!

Imagine all the incredible rifles that were stacked up in those warehouses, that ended up bubba'd...by the importer or the buyers....:jaw:
 
Here's some kind of similar number under the buttplate of a 07 Amberg that is a straight Imperial German rework. The stock is force matched to the action, and is of the early type, i.e., no grips or bolt take down disc.

No clue what it means.
 

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Lowe spare us your political speculation

If FDR had been 'sympathetic' to the communists probably he would have allowed the export of arms to the Republican forces. historically it can be argued that FDR saved the USA from going fascist in the darkest times of the depression. A saint no, but a skilled, patriotic politician who should under no circumstance have run for a 4th term.
gil
 
FDR campaigned in 1932 fairly conservatively and that lasted until shortly after the inauguration... he was a liar from his first public held office until he died, he was a Germanophobe of the first order and he governed as a fascist, economically little different than Mussolini and many of his early supporters bailed on him because of his fascistic policies (most of his crackpot programs were given titles very reminiscent of fascists and national socialists, differing only in an populist American lingo). John T Flynn, an early supporter, made a living condemning his fascistic policies and a actually wrote a good piece detailing the characteristics of fascism and the relationship to FDR.

Most people, especially on the left, can't spell fascism needless to say define it, however FDR's legacy is one of fascistic policies and he more than any other man created the "Great Depression", - the Great Depression lingered as long as it did "because" of his policies rather than in spite of them...

BTW, arms sales after WWI were largely condemned throughout the west, the League mad a big deal over the policy and Congress passed the legislation, FDR did not stop the export, it was against US law and that law lasted until WWII, as I recall it was lifted (by Congress) before France fell and Britain and France made huge orders at that time (much ordered by France never made it). Big news in the period literature, business and political journals...

If FDR had been 'sympathetic' to the communists probably he would have allowed the export of arms to the Republican forces. historically it can be argued that FDR saved the USA from going fascist in the darkest times of the depression. A saint no, but a skilled, patriotic politician who should under no circumstance have run for a 4th term.
gil
 

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