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Thread: Engraving and fake ax 41 discussion

  1. #1
    Community Organizer Hambone's Avatar
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    Default Engraving and fake ax 41 discussion

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=241670344

    I think this an interesting piece for analysis because it, IMHO, represents a higher degree of bolt humping normally seen. Plenty of people thought it legitimate and certainly the buyer did. I don't and ask y'alls input.

    I don't care for it compared to known ax dies and the grinding style evidence on the bolt flat and significantly, the rear of the striker. I've also got a problem with the numbering appearance. The numbers on the bolt look engraved, not die struck. Notice the rounding on the ends and depth. German numbers were struck with dies; these look like metal was pushed around, except for the numbers struck on the rear of the cocking piece and safety, which look like the fake byf/ar looking dies that have been around. I think a combination of engraving (bolt and bolt collar) and fake die stamps (safety and cocking piece).

    Also, if you look at the bolt numbers you can see that under magnification they are misshapen and deformed, which is a result of engraving, not die stamping. You can even see on the bolt shroud how the engraved 3 pushed metal over the 8. A die struck 3 would have overstruck and been on top of the 8.

    BiO, I know you have detailed pics of an ax 1940 bolt on your cd. This weekend I'll pull my ax 41 and shoot comparison pics.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Bob in OHIO's Avatar
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    Here's mine...
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    email => K98@bobinohio.com

  3. #3
    Senior Member tsmgguy's Avatar
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    Ham, if those markings are faked then it's without doubt the finest job I've ever seen. I'm no expert (Lord knows!) but these markings would have raised no suspicion in my mind except where the small radius seems to possibly be missing where it's normally found at the base of the bolt handle, just under the serial. This area is difficult to see well in the auction photos. IMHO, this rifle's bolt markings are original. If they aren't, then either I'm easily fooled or the fakery here has transcended any ever seen before.
    Last edited by tsmgguy; 07-26-2011 at 09:58 AM.
    Wanted: K98 Dou-42 bolt 5235b, and Port. bayonet G19383

  4. #4
    Community Organizer Hambone's Avatar
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    TSMG, I think your comments are solid and valid, except to the extent that this is so good as to be undetectible. The boinkery is not that good IMHO. Also, if it was an easy first glance no brainer I wouldn't have posted it here for discussion, so that validates your remarks. ;)

    Here are the two ax bolt numbers again, a little closer. Compare them. One was created by die strikes, the other, engraving. The differences are obvious to me under a little magnification. I'm going to post my ax 41 bolt numbers this weekend for comparison. Engraving like this is used a good bit in Colt "restoration". It has been showing up in K98k "restoration" as well.


    Thanks to Bob for posting these pics from his CD. It's value is evident in this example.
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  5. #5
    Maple Syrup Mod Eh CanadianAR's Avatar
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    I am new to k98s but some of those numbers look suspicious to me. The 4 and the 3 are different in every image.
    THe barrel and receiver look legit, but the bolt should and bolt handle numbers are off. The 4 and the 3 are what bugs me. They are too rounded with no continuity at all in shape. Also seem to be rather deep compared to the other ones.
    I know that I would examine them closely as the fonts on most matching rifles is closing to each other. One thing i dont think k98ks are known for is sloppy poor serial numbers. lol
    my .02 anyways.
    Looking for 10" cleaning rod, early style e/214 #91, nazi style e/26 #04

  6. #6
    Senior Member Turbo Archie's Avatar
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    Bob,

    Yours has an FN bolt?


    ..
    *
    **--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    **Wanted - Original un-dicked with late Steyr (bnz45) stock... Long shot but......
    ** --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    **

  7. #7
    Moderator˛ Pisgah's Avatar
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    This one is not even close. I agree with all of BiO's and Bone's comments and will add a few thoughts. I am away from home for the week and am stuck browsing the internet with my droid. I looked at the bolt photos yesterday when AW posted the topic over on GB. My first thought I left there was that one should immediately put their guard up when evaluating a rifle lacking a serial number suffix letter. Humpers love not having to add the suffix letter onto bolt flats because it is nearly impossible to match them in appearance to preexisting barrel shank/receiver ring serial number suffix letters. I have even seen humpers add a phony suffix letter to both sites on rifles which were originally no letter block for the same reason. In addition to the appearance of the bolt flat numbers being wrong, the trough at the base of the handle has been machined away. You may see this feature missing on earlier rifles but on these you see a nicely finished, smooth bolt flat. The appearance of this bolt flat is fairly crude. Likely too crude considering that this rifle is relatively early. The appearance of the numbered area of the bolt sleeve seems recontoured and with edges that are too sharp. The cocking piece has been crudely scrubbed. I wouldn't expect a cocking piece manufacture 1 May 1945 to have this appearance. The humper, in this case, ground away the correct circular milling marks as well as leaving the rear.face flat, I.e. removing the expected contour. I am giving the humper a C minus/D plus on this one. If it is obvious when evaluating with pictures on a cell phone, it is not that fantastic of a humping effort.
    WTB/WTT: (1)late E/H marked bcd stock either standard or semi-Kriegs; (2)unnumbered late MO Zf-41 stock, Kriegs or standard stock; (3)transitional late unnumbered type dot stock which uses bandspring and has bayo mount but no cleaning rod hole; (4)unnumbered byf standard stock as typically found on some byf 44 K and L block rifles; (5)unnumbered E/H bnz standard stock as typically found on bnz.4 and bnz 44 N, O, and P block rifles; (6)any bnz Kriegsmodell stock either with E/H or without

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bob in OHIO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo Archie View Post
    Yours has an FN bolt?
    Nope... all ERMA
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    email => K98@bobinohio.com

  9. #9
    Moderator˛ Pisgah's Avatar
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    I can't edit for some reason. My final point is that the humper missed machining the little flat at the 12 o'clock position where the numbers are stamped on the bolt sleeve.
    WTB/WTT: (1)late E/H marked bcd stock either standard or semi-Kriegs; (2)unnumbered late MO Zf-41 stock, Kriegs or standard stock; (3)transitional late unnumbered type dot stock which uses bandspring and has bayo mount but no cleaning rod hole; (4)unnumbered byf standard stock as typically found on some byf 44 K and L block rifles; (5)unnumbered E/H bnz standard stock as typically found on bnz.4 and bnz 44 N, O, and P block rifles; (6)any bnz Kriegsmodell stock either with E/H or without

  10. #10
    Senior Member Winchester Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
    TSMG, I think your comments are solid and valid, except to the extent that this is so good as to be undetectible. The boinkery is not that good IMHO. Also, if it was an easy first glance no brainer I wouldn't have posted it here for discussion, so that validates your remarks. ;)

    Here are the two ax bolt numbers again, a little closer. Compare them. One was created by die strikes, the other, engraving. The differences are obvious to me under a little magnification. I'm going to post my ax 41 bolt numbers this weekend for comparison. Engraving like this is used a good bit in Colt "restoration". It has been showing up in K98k "restoration" as well.


    Thanks to Bob for posting these pics from his CD. It's value is evident in this example.
    If you click on each picture (4083 and 1822) one at a time and then zoom up to 400 to 500%, the differences really show up.

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