Engraving and fake ax 41 discussion

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=241670344

I think this an interesting piece for analysis because it, IMHO, represents a higher degree of bolt humping normally seen. Plenty of people thought it legitimate and certainly the buyer did. I don't and ask y'alls input.

I don't care for it compared to known ax dies and the grinding style evidence on the bolt flat and significantly, the rear of the striker. I've also got a problem with the numbering appearance. The numbers on the bolt look engraved, not die struck. Notice the rounding on the ends and depth. German numbers were struck with dies; these look like metal was pushed around, except for the numbers struck on the rear of the cocking piece and safety, which look like the fake byf/ar looking dies that have been around. I think a combination of engraving (bolt and bolt collar) and fake die stamps (safety and cocking piece).

Also, if you look at the bolt numbers you can see that under magnification they are misshapen and deformed, which is a result of engraving, not die stamping. You can even see on the bolt shroud how the engraved 3 pushed metal over the 8. A die struck 3 would have overstruck and been on top of the 8.

BiO, I know you have detailed pics of an ax 1940 bolt on your cd. This weekend I'll pull my ax 41 and shoot comparison pics.

Here's mine...

Ham, if those markings are faked then it's without doubt the finest job I've ever seen. I'm no expert (Lord knows!) but these markings would have raised no suspicion in my mind except where the small radius seems to possibly be missing where it's normally found at the base of the bolt handle, just under the serial. This area is difficult to see well in the auction photos. IMHO, this rifle's bolt markings are original. If they aren't, then either I'm easily fooled or the fakery here has transcended any ever seen before.

TSMG, I think your comments are solid and valid, except to the extent that this is so good as to be undetectible. The boinkery is not that good IMHO. Also, if it was an easy first glance no brainer I wouldn't have posted it here for discussion, so that validates your remarks.

Here are the two ax bolt numbers again, a little closer. Compare them. One was created by die strikes, the other, engraving. The differences are obvious to me under a little magnification. I'm going to post my ax 41 bolt numbers this weekend for comparison. Engraving like this is used a good bit in Colt "restoration". It has been showing up in K98k "restoration" as well.


Thanks to Bob for posting these pics from his CD. It's value is evident in this example.

I am new to k98s but some of those numbers look suspicious to me. The 4 and the 3 are different in every image.
THe barrel and receiver look legit, but the bolt should and bolt handle numbers are off. The 4 and the 3 are what bugs me. They are too rounded with no continuity at all in shape. Also seem to be rather deep compared to the other ones.
I know that I would examine them closely as the fonts on most matching rifles is closing to each other. One thing i dont think k98ks are known for is sloppy poor serial numbers. lol
my .02 anyways.

Bob,

Yours has an FN bolt?


..

This one is not even close. I agree with all of BiO's and Bone's comments and will add a few thoughts. I am away from home for the week and am stuck browsing the internet with my droid. I looked at the bolt photos yesterday when AW posted the topic over on GB. My first thought I left there was that one should immediately put their guard up when evaluating a rifle lacking a serial number suffix letter. Humpers love not having to add the suffix letter onto bolt flats because it is nearly impossible to match them in appearance to preexisting barrel shank/receiver ring serial number suffix letters. I have even seen humpers add a phony suffix letter to both sites on rifles which were originally no letter block for the same reason. In addition to the appearance of the bolt flat numbers being wrong, the trough at the base of the handle has been machined away. You may see this feature missing on earlier rifles but on these you see a nicely finished, smooth bolt flat. The appearance of this bolt flat is fairly crude. Likely too crude considering that this rifle is relatively early. The appearance of the numbered area of the bolt sleeve seems recontoured and with edges that are too sharp. The cocking piece has been crudely scrubbed. I wouldn't expect a cocking piece manufacture 1 May 1945 to have this appearance. The humper, in this case, ground away the correct circular milling marks as well as leaving the rear.face flat, I.e. removing the expected contour. I am giving the humper a C minus/D plus on this one. If it is obvious when evaluating with pictures on a cell phone, it is not that fantastic of a humping effort.

Turbo Archie said:

Yours has an FN bolt?

Click to expand...

Nope... all ERMA

I can't edit for some reason. My final point is that the humper missed machining the little flat at the 12 o'clock position where the numbers are stamped on the bolt sleeve.

Hambone said:

TSMG, I think your comments are solid and valid, except to the extent that this is so good as to be undetectible. The boinkery is not that good IMHO. Also, if it was an easy first glance no brainer I wouldn't have posted it here for discussion, so that validates your remarks.

Here are the two ax bolt numbers again, a little closer. Compare them. One was created by die strikes, the other, engraving. The differences are obvious to me under a little magnification. I'm going to post my ax 41 bolt numbers this weekend for comparison. Engraving like this is used a good bit in Colt "restoration". It has been showing up in K98k "restoration" as well.


Thanks to Bob for posting these pics from his CD. It's value is evident in this example.

Click to expand...

If you click on each picture (4083 and 1822) one at a time and then zoom up to 400 to 500%, the differences really show up.

Here are some close-ups of my AX 40 bolt flat cocking piece and shroud. GR

Looks Familiar

Seeing where this rifle originated scared me. I know a guy who comes to Allentown from NY who thinks he fools people. The engraved numbers are his specialty and he is an excellent machinist. He will fool most people. They stand out to me because they are all the same depth. Firing pin and saftey work were pretty good. As Pisgah said if you know machining patterns this one was easy.

Thank you George! The engraver obviously used original font as his "model". Thanks Jack. Can you share any further info on this chap, his work, equipment used, etc.?

i will always agree with the super moderator and moderator without any hesitancy as they are experts.

Not worthy ac, I vet my opinions just like everyone else and most of what I know is plagiarized non-original thought anyway. From Jack944, the engraving work of a humper in NY. Compare to ax 41 humpery. The work below is average, I've seen much better and the work on the ax 41 is a little better. Magnification makes it obvious.

i still have a lot to learn about humped rifles. thank goodness for super mods, mods and senior members.

Engraved numbers

As I mentioned before. I bought a bsw k98 years ago that had engraved serial numbers. It was quickly sent back. Some work is better than others. Jack944 has had the pleasure of seeing humped rifles at allentown for years. I have now just in that last few shows seen a few. They surface now and again. The new york humper is now deceased so there will be no more where those came from. I have seen a few leaking out of another guys large collection and have had to look them over pretty carefully. A bnz41 kriegsmarine issue rifle comes to mind. As two shows ago I had to tell a friend to pass on it. This is all nothing new and I think there is another fellow I have heard about who will match a bolt for you.. It's all buyer beware. The guy who bought this rifle I dont know but he uses the same handle on the waf forum because I saw him asking about a helmet that was on gunbroker. I have not looked to see if he posted this rifle for review overthere. I saw another guy bidding who is a thorn in some guys side and doesnt seem to know good rifles from bad but spends good money on both. I'm really not sure if it's our job to save every last soul from themseleves ??? I wish I could say I've never bought or missed a bad gun or a misnumbered part !

Has anyone ever tryed a micrometer to measure the thickness of the bolt flat from the numbers to the bottom? I guess it could vary from manufacturer, or year / block ranges but I think that evan with that manufactoring varience a ground and renumbered bolt flat would have a big difference maybe as much as .025" from an unground bolt.

Micrometer

mauser202 said:

Has anyone ever tryed a micrometer to measure the thickness of the bolt flat from the numbers to the bottom? I guess it could vary from manufacturer, or year / block ranges but I think that evan with that manufactoring varience a ground and renumbered bolt flat would have a big difference maybe as much as .025" from an unground bolt.

Click to expand...

My father was a machinist and gifted me with a micrometer. There are many variations but there are some patterns of course. In the mid 80's guys would grind and re-number so my trusty micro exposed a few. Now they grind..build up and re-number. Makes it harder.

Mauser99, we all have to be careful, particularly as we age and become farsighted Let the guy know. It's as much about helping fraud victims as it is deterring turd mongering. Nailing the well done engraving, and this one while bad is not too bad, is aided by magnification. Most of the smart collectors and dealers I know, particularly those into pistols, carry jewelers' loupes. I don't own one, only have a magnifying glass, but should get one.

There were several posts I read blessing this ax 41 from guys there whom I thought would know better. Without magnification and knowing what an original ax 41 looks like one could get stung, particularly in a poorly lit funshow.

http://reviews.ebay.com/Jewelers-Loupe-tips-on-choosing-the-one-you-need_W0QQugidZ10000000000035147