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Engraving and fake ax 41 discussion

Here are the two ax bolt numbers again, a little closer. Compare them. One was created by die strikes, the other, engraving.

Another feature to look for (that Ham brought to our attention years ago) is the die struck numbers have a chisel point to the bottom of the numbers.... not rounded. The 1822 n shows that feature pretty well while the engraved cannot duplicate that feature...
 
Good reminder BiO. Some don't have as pronounced chisel troughs. Dou comes to mind. Though there is a big difference, particularly under magnification, of what metal does when pushed around (engraving) vs. die struck from above.
 
Due to the new advances in machining and cam software, this problem will get worse if you have a talented person. They now have plotters that have a .005" stylus that can reach the smallest details then you save the geometry curve fit it and boom you have a letter or number, the newest machine can scan a picture scale it to the size you need ( make geometry in a cam or engineering software then boom ) send it to the machinist's or tool makers especially the EDM guys and you can have punches made for whatever you want with extreme detail ( sinker EDM burn a carbon from mirror image chisel or radiused edge ) the only defense is that these machines are expensive most will never have them, I only know of two shops in the US that can make punches. Just thought you guys should know the technology is their. I could go into more detail but I think you get the picture. GR
 
Due to the new advances in machining and cam software, this problem will get worse if you have a talented person.

This brings me to a question I often ask other collectors- when that fakes get so good that you can't tell, are they still fakes? Of course they are but once it's so good that it looks original the value curve will start to go down.
 
IMO you get the Turnbull style Winchesters or the Colt SAA's, they sell for alot and look real pretty but NOT REAL to me, so I consider them fakes or restorations. I agree value will go down. The Winchester market really shows it. .02 worth GR
 
I may have got off track but Wins and Colt's have way may collectors than us 98 guys but shows what happened.
 
Thanks for the good info George. I don't know that we've reached the prices for rifles where the truly exceptional work is profitable enough. As long as people can do the work as shown by the ax 41 and hook a fish for $1900 that's good enough for now. There are already dies available in byf/ar font and bnz font.
 
Yeah its sad Craig, what people will do to screw people. The European countries have some great machining and they make some nice stuff cheap. I was trying to draw a parrallel between the two. We are not close to that yet.
 
award, you and I know it is simple but still takes time and a good machine plus HT if you want hardened punches. I left it vague for a reason no sense helping out the dimwits. GR
 
Hello guys, I'm sorry to bring a old thread back, but I have some info that can contribute to the discussion. If I post something wrong or simply stupid, feel free to correct it or even delete the post.

First of all, I'm impressed with the amount of content in this forum!!! The best, IMHO!!!:thumbsup::hail:



I'm nowhere near in knowledge concerning K98k collection in comparation with the pros here, but my father is a experienced machinist (45+ years), same with my brother, who worked 10 years as a EDM machine operator(called here in Brazil eletro-erosion), among other things.

First point: jack944, in post #19, mentioned metal build up. IMHO, this is the case with the bolt. Look at the marks around the 4, and 3. Also, at the bottom of the pic the "slope" where the handle jois the bolt body are way different.





1pix343857180.jpgax026.jpg





Second point: George R., in post #23, talked about the use of EDM for the engravings. IMO, this is not possible. Firstly, because EDM "burns" the metal around, altering the color of the finish, if not removing it. This would require touch-ups that would be "spottable" a mile away, IMO. And secondly, it would be impossible to fake curved surfaces well, like receivers. The EDM electrode can not compensate for curvature, being it applied "flat" to the surface, leaving a uneven depth, unlike the "stamped" original, where the receiver is "rolled" to leave a even depth.

I hope my points make sense. I reposted the pics of the bolt in page 1 for reader's comodity.



Michael
 
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Hello guys, I'm sorry to bring a old thread back, but I have some info that can contribute to the discussion. If I post something wrong or simply stupid, feel free to correct it or even delete the post.

First of all, I'm impressed with the amount of content in this forum!!! The best, IMHO!!!:thumbsup::hail:



I'm nowhere near in knowledge concerning K98k collection in comparation with the pros here, but my father is a experienced machinist (45+ years), same with my brother, who worked 10 years as a EDM machine operator(called here in Brazil eletro-erosion), among other things.

First point: jack944, in post #19, mentioned metal build up. IMHO, this is the case with the bolt. Look at the marks around the 4, and 3. Also, at the bottom of the pic the "slope" where the handle jois the bolt body are way different.





View attachment 24333View attachment 24334





Second point: George R., in post #23, talked about the use of EDM for the engravings. IMO, this is not possible. Firstly, because EDM "burns" the metal around, altering the color of the finish, if not removing it. This would require touch-ups that would be "spottable" a mile away, IMO. And secondly, it would be impossible to fake curved surfaces well, like receivers. The EDM electrode can not compensate for curvature, being it applied "flat" to the surface, leaving a uneven depth, unlike the "stamped" original, where the receiver is "rolled" to leave a even depth.

I hope my points make sense. I reposted the pics of the bolt in page 1 for reader's comodity.



Michael

Michael,

you are correct that the edm will discolor or erode the part but you use a sinker edm to make the stamp and not to use the carbon ( electrode ) to put your detail on the part, if you use a cam program you can project your geometry onto almost any radius within limits using a 5 axis machining center thereby making any carbon ( electrode ) for your stamp dies or roll dies ( hardened steel blanks ). I left parts out but now I have to clarify. Only some of the largest or specialty shops will have this equpment and the talent to use it, it is very pricey equipment.

GR
 
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