ZF4 Kurz P
- Thread starter fl22326
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GunKraut
Senior Member
It may be a late war dow or post war Meopta gussied up as a ddx Kurz Patrone scope. Wouldn't be the first time a Czech made scope has been passed off as a ddx but this one could be the best rip-off ever, rivaling the Bu scope scam.
There's surface rust everywhere on the scope except where it says "Kurz Patr." The triangle for the elevation knob looks offset and there's something next or underneath. The elevation drum scale is rusted but the rest of the knob has good blueing. Could the scale be a shrink fit sleeve? Too many questionable inconsistencies and two bidders going head to head. Why do Eastern bloc sellers never clean up their junk and always leave a layer of dirt and grease?
There's surface rust everywhere on the scope except where it says "Kurz Patr." The triangle for the elevation knob looks offset and there's something next or underneath. The elevation drum scale is rusted but the rest of the knob has good blueing. Could the scale be a shrink fit sleeve? Too many questionable inconsistencies and two bidders going head to head. Why do Eastern bloc sellers never clean up their junk and always leave a layer of dirt and grease?
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NEVER Trust the Czech Sellers/Dealers . Unless his name is Stana M . 
Thorne
Senior Member
First things that offset me, is the screw slots are warped so its been messed with.
The Kurz engraving looks too pretty and the red inside the writing feels to bright with the amount of loss of finish and patina to the main body.
I dont know much about zf4' collecting but something feels off. So when in doubt, I'd say no.
The Kurz engraving looks too pretty and the red inside the writing feels to bright with the amount of loss of finish and patina to the main body.
I dont know much about zf4' collecting but something feels off. So when in doubt, I'd say no.
GunKraut
Senior Member
Well, this beginning to smell more fishy than Madonna's crotch.
The buyer of the ZF4 Kurz Patrone scope left verbatim the same feedback for seller cygnus2015 as the seller left for him.
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=cygnus2015&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&keyword=332383827057&searchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=cygnus2015&ftab=FeedbackLeftForOthers&keyword=332383827057&searchInterval=30
You be the judge.
The buyer of the ZF4 Kurz Patrone scope left verbatim the same feedback for seller cygnus2015 as the seller left for him.
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=cygnus2015&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&keyword=332383827057&searchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=cygnus2015&ftab=FeedbackLeftForOthers&keyword=332383827057&searchInterval=30
You be the judge.
Kurzpatrone
Member
Two additional pics of the scope
Hi all,
Just became a member of the forum and I'm the buyer of this scope. And couldn't help by the way that the seller copied and pasted the feedback I gave first (based on responsiveness and speedy delivery). So nothing fishy about me.
And looking at the pictures posted by the seller it was already obvious that the scope was messed with. So probably you all think I'm a bit nuts for bidding on it and buying it. And I must say can't blame you.
But after I received the scope I first wanted to see if I could get a better look on the area around the current and removed arrow with a jewellers pocket magnifying glass. Upon closer inspection I could clearly see that there was a "triangle" removed. But the area behind the "triangle", due to the discoloration of the metal, made me doubt whether it also could be a bold/fat "arrow".
Looking closer at the tip of the removed "triangle" it showed that there was a tiny section that wasn't backfilled. So I took the courage to take a snap off cutter with a fine sharp tip and tried to pry off the "triangle". It took some effort, without scratching the surface of the scope too much, but it eventually could be removed bit by bit. The results are shown on the two pictures attached. And my apologies, but I don't have the professional equipment to zoom in more closely or to provide better illumination for taking photographs.
I also tried if it was also possible to pry off the discoloured section, but this isn't possible because the metal is much harder than the type that was applied in the removed and backfilled "triangle". When I tried to pry off at the spot where the "tail" of an arrow should be, I could only bulge/damage it very slightly as you can see on picture 2 so I hope I'm correct in my assumption that nothing was removed on this spot to remove the "tail" of an arrow.
Within the removed "triangle" you can also still see contours that are slightly deeper within the metal than the inner part of the shape.
I don't want to use a Dremel with a grinder or small drill since this might/would easily take out or damage the original metal.
Still wondering though why somebody would take the effort to replace the existing triangle by a new one and put it offset.
Any suggestions or remarks would be appreciated.
P.S: I'm more in collecting the Sturmgewehr variants between 1942-1945 and the Kurz ammo, so when it comes to ww2 scopes ......................................
Hi all,
Just became a member of the forum and I'm the buyer of this scope. And couldn't help by the way that the seller copied and pasted the feedback I gave first (based on responsiveness and speedy delivery). So nothing fishy about me.
And looking at the pictures posted by the seller it was already obvious that the scope was messed with. So probably you all think I'm a bit nuts for bidding on it and buying it. And I must say can't blame you.
But after I received the scope I first wanted to see if I could get a better look on the area around the current and removed arrow with a jewellers pocket magnifying glass. Upon closer inspection I could clearly see that there was a "triangle" removed. But the area behind the "triangle", due to the discoloration of the metal, made me doubt whether it also could be a bold/fat "arrow".
Looking closer at the tip of the removed "triangle" it showed that there was a tiny section that wasn't backfilled. So I took the courage to take a snap off cutter with a fine sharp tip and tried to pry off the "triangle". It took some effort, without scratching the surface of the scope too much, but it eventually could be removed bit by bit. The results are shown on the two pictures attached. And my apologies, but I don't have the professional equipment to zoom in more closely or to provide better illumination for taking photographs.
I also tried if it was also possible to pry off the discoloured section, but this isn't possible because the metal is much harder than the type that was applied in the removed and backfilled "triangle". When I tried to pry off at the spot where the "tail" of an arrow should be, I could only bulge/damage it very slightly as you can see on picture 2 so I hope I'm correct in my assumption that nothing was removed on this spot to remove the "tail" of an arrow.
Within the removed "triangle" you can also still see contours that are slightly deeper within the metal than the inner part of the shape.
I don't want to use a Dremel with a grinder or small drill since this might/would easily take out or damage the original metal.
Still wondering though why somebody would take the effort to replace the existing triangle by a new one and put it offset.
Any suggestions or remarks would be appreciated.
P.S: I'm more in collecting the Sturmgewehr variants between 1942-1945 and the Kurz ammo, so when it comes to ww2 scopes ......................................
Attachments
GunKraut
Senior Member
Hello and welcome aboard. We're the primary knowledge base for everything related to Mauser K98 but many of us own (and work on) MP44, FG42 and G/K 43 as well. Therefore ZF4 scopes are very well known to us and "internet discoveries" are frequently being discussed here. The rules are, you're not posting links to ongoing auctions, unless you consider the auction or the item sold in the auction to be fraudulent or so blatantly fake that public exposure for educational purposes is warranted. Your scope, unfortunately, needed to be discussed here as it had too many red flags and it's a shame you didn't find this site earlier, before you bought the scope.
You discovery of a second triangle underneath the first triangle is kind of disturbing and the questions is: why? thank you for sharing your findings and maybe there's more to discover. I personally would be interested in seeing the elevation knob removed to take a closer look at how it is constructed. I think there may be a thin tubular sleeve with engraved numbers and the letter P shrink fit onto an original drum that was slightly turned down on a lathe.
Kurzpatrone
Member
Two pictures of the removed elevation knob
Thank you for the warm welcome, very nice and much appreciated.
Please find attached two pictures of the elevation know after it has been removed. And indeed a thin tubular sleeve is installed with the engraved numbers and letter P.
Thank you for the warm welcome, very nice and much appreciated.
Please find attached two pictures of the elevation know after it has been removed. And indeed a thin tubular sleeve is installed with the engraved numbers and letter P.
Kurzpatrone
Member
Nigromontanus
Senior Member
If I shall put my original one for sale on ebay, I would not get more than EUR 800 for it, I am sure. This scope is pictured in found status on Claus Espeholts website. It has been found in the area of Gross-Berlin, where the Kummersdorf guns got used up in April/May 1945. I have written a 3 volume book on StG44 accessories, but I am stuck with the layout on part 1 (magazines), due to other obligations. This scope and more of them will be treated in part 3.
I do not consider the scope shown above original, sorry, but I like your enthusiasm.
I do not consider the scope shown above original, sorry, but I like your enthusiasm.
Attachments
Kurzpatrone
Member
Thank you for your feedback and the pictures of your scope, it's really appreciated. And would highly appreciate it if you could drop me a line when you're book's finished and out for publication on the StG44 accessories.
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