Third Party Press

ZF4 Kurz P

So what are the next steps regarding this scope? hopefully you paid with paypal and can ask ebay for a refund!

To be quite honest I would like to leave it as it is. It was paid with PayPal, but at this moment I have more important issues in my life to take care off. So the money spend on this scope is the least of my priorities.
 
At this moment I have more important issues in my life to take care off. So the money spend on this scope is the least of my priorities.
Interesting that if you don't care on the 5600 USD spent on a fake scope because you have other important issues, however you bother to ask on this forum for more opinions on this scope.

It seems to be a good business if one has to buy a ZF4 scope and just re-engrave it and reproduce some parts. Sounds to a 1000% margin.
 
Interesting that if you don't care on the 5600 USD spent on a fake scope because you have other important issues, however you bother to ask on this forum for more opinions on this scope.

It seems to be a good business if one has to buy a ZF4 scope and just re-engrave it and reproduce some parts. Sounds to a 1000% margin.


Yes, I know it must seem weird. And all your comments and expertise are really appreciated since I hardly pack any experience when it comes to scopes. That's why I asked for your opinions.

However several people in my family (incl. my Dad) recently passed away and that put my view of life in a complete different perspective. And taking informal care, besides working days, of my Mother who also has health problems is one of those important issues and consumes a lot of time and energy. Hope you'll understand that trying to retrieve the 5600 USD is less important for me.

So please don't jump to any conclusions or assumptions.

I hope one day though I will be able to provide any valuable information or contribution to this forum. Or ask the opinion of those with experience.
 
It is pretty simple. You still have the buyer protection from PayPal. You clearly bought a reproduction scope for 10 times than what the seller invested into production of this scope. If it were me, I would send it back to the seller and get back my money. For that amount of money you'll for sure somewhen find an original scope.
 
Yes, this happened to me with a buyer who bought an original scope actually but for some reason said it was a fake (I think he just regretted having bought the scope and wanted his bucks back in his pocket).

anyway, paypal takes immediately the money in the seller's account and if the guy didn't provision the money, they initiate pretty rapidly a legal action...

so not much to do on your side, just report an issue and you can for sure use this forum's posts as a proof...

anyway, your call.

Max
 
We can take a couple lessons home from this train wreck:

1) Never trust a seller from former communist block countries. For decades they had to get by with Jerry rigging, faking, lying, to make ends meet under communist starvation "economies". Can't switch that trait off in a matter of years.
2) Ask yourself why such rare parts only exists behind the iron curtain. Did someone just discover the holy grail (who doesn't remember the G43 ammo pouch stash in the Ukraine? There's gotta be something just like it for ZF4 Bu, ZF4 Kurz and ZF4 swept mounts, right)? OK, think again.
3) Ask yourself why these parts are always conveniently covered in cosmoline. Oh, we all love cosmoline, it makes parts so virgin and desirable for us collectors. There's really no reason to believe cosmoline was used to cover up a mediocre hump job, right?
4) Ask yourself why serials and Waffenamts are often conveniently corroded or partially damaged. So you have to guess instead of knowing for sure?
5) Ask yourself why serials and Waffenamts are filled in with white stuff? To make them better visible as a service to the potential buyer or to hide the fact they were engraved with a pantograph instead of roll or die stamped?
6) Ask yourself why the seller used an odd camera angle to picture important features of the item. Oh, you know, the seller is a clueless newbie who doesn't know how to take pictures. He also doesn't know how rare his item is, that's why he starts with such a low opening bid. Well, the only one clueless here is the guy who thinks he's smarter than a seller who seems to offer his stuff way below market value. Pawel Novak has surfed this wave for as long as I remember.
7) If it looks like new, with a little bit of corrosion here and there, it is new. Jerszey, Pawel, Mikhail and Pjotr produced it last month in their shed, than wrapped it in a vinegar soaked rag and buried it for a couple days in moist Polish soil. Dug it up again, rubbed it with an oil soaked sandy rag and voila!, there's your original G43 butt plate in "as found arsenal condition". Never mind the crummy seams inside from Pjotr's poor MIG welding skills and the door that won't fit well (we all know, "late war" and such).
8) My all time favorite (until this ZF4 came along): The $600 Walther G41 bayonet lug in like new condition. Stamped WaA135 !!! It sold within hours through "Buy It Now".
 
Reading post #14, it would seem the 'prying' and 'scratching' the buyer inflicted might preclude the item from being returned, i.e., it is not in the same condition as when it was shipped.

I'd be fanatical about trying to get my money back though. I can't imaging shrugging off $5600 for a bunk item.
 
Reading post #14, it would seem the 'prying' and 'scratching' the buyer inflicted might preclude the item from being returned, i.e., it is not in the same condition as when it was shipped.

I'd be fanatical about trying to get my money back though. I can't imaging shrugging off $5600 for a bunk item.

Item "Not as described" will be hard to apply as the slime ball of a seller never stated it was an original ZF4 Kurz scope. This low life knew exactly what he was selling and purposely made no claims of authenticity. The buyer saw what he wanted to see, not what was there and what a lot of others saw. Did he deserve to be fooled? No! Does the seller deserve to keep the money? HELL NO!
The seller knowingly sold a fake item and the buyer has the opportunity to return it within a certain time frame. If push comes to shove, eBay/PayPal will probably side against the buyer despite their hyped-up "buyer satisfaction guarantee". From past experience, eBay/PayPal are sleeze bags no better than seller CYGNUS20l5.
 
Item "Not as described" will be hard to apply as the slime ball of a seller never stated it was an original ZF4 Kurz scope. This low life knew exactly what he was selling and purposely made no claims of authenticity. The buyer saw what he wanted to see, not what was there and what a lot of others saw. Did he deserve to be fooled? No! Does the seller deserve to keep the money? HELL NO!
The seller knowingly sold a fake item and the buyer has the opportunity to return it within a certain time frame. If push comes to shove, eBay/PayPal will probably side against the buyer despite their hyped-up "buyer satisfaction guarantee". From past experience, eBay/PayPal are sleeze bags no better than seller CYGNUS20l5.

Calm down bro. I have no skin in this game, and do not collect sniper gear. I can make no claim to authenticity of the item outside of what you and others have said in this thread.

I merely pointed out that the item in question, be it original or 100% fake, had been seemingly played with and damaged after arriving at the end user. That is a question for the buyer, seller, and the 3rd party (ebay, paypal, et al) to decide. AFAIK, these 3rd parties don't authenticate items, they just decide whether the transaction was conducted within their terms of service agreements.

Did he deserve to be fooled?

That is a question. When confronted with a $5600 item, one would assume a buyer does their due diligence in regards to the item and the purveyor of it. That doesn't seem to have happened here. Research could have been a book, or it could have been as easy as a polite private message to yourself or mrfarb asking for opinions. At any rate, the buyer seems willing to chalk this up and not pursue returning the item, in lieu of taking care of family business.
 
If the only lessons are "Never trust a seller from former communist block countries" this forum and its members are on a short cut to oblivion. I have done a lot of business with "sellers from former communist block countries" and never had an issue. I rather had issues with collectors from Western European countries, who finance their addiction by cheating fellow collectors. So take better:

1. Know what you are buying.
2. If you do not know ask somebody who does know.
3. Accept the risk that the other party does not fulfill her contractual obligation.
4. Try to minimize the risk.
5. Do not take the risk without proper reserves.
6. If the risk sets in, accept it as part of the game.
 
If the only lessons are "Never trust a seller from former communist block countries" ...

No, this is not the only lesson, thank god. There are also scumbags in Western European countries who advertise their junk on U.S. sites, for example a well known WW2 scope peddler from Italy. I have done business with Eastern European sellers in other fields as well, such as vintage vehicles and parts since the iron curtain came down. In the beginning, they were unloading genuine WW2 articles, then they sold mostly original items with some repro parts, then the large scale fakery started. So, just like you, I did have good experience -long time ago. The problem is, there are very skilled craftsmen in Eastern Europe who have created great reproductions or hump jobs but didn't advertise them as such. Fakery from India, on the other hand, is pretty crude and easy to spot. Here's an easy example for Eastern European craftsmanship:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/German-WW2-Trigger-Guard-for-G43-G-43-k43-with-screws-/263192866313

A couple red flags other than than what is really wrong with this part: a) the price; nobody sells an original G43 trigger guard with screws for $99 BIN. b) not the first time a G43 trigger guard by this seller sold with exactly the same pictures. c) no claims are made regarding authenticity of the part (although "I have for sale WW2 Trigger Guard for G43 G-43 k43" could be argued as advertising a WW2 period item) which makes it easy for the seller to refuse an eBay return based on "Not as described".

While this example is easy to spot as a fake, more elaborate scams like the present attempt at fabricating a Kurz scope or the number of ZF4 "Bu" scope offered in recent years on eBay are more concerning. Same for ZF4 Luftwaffe scopes, very easy to fake. The buyer will find out about it when he holds the item in his hands for closer inspection. Then, returning the item for refund across the Atlantic becomes another issue, especially with eBay. There are too many instances of eBay/PayPal siding with the seller because enough ambiguity was put into the item description, as in the present case where the seller never made the claim for it to be an original WW2 made Kurz scope.


As someone who collects more than just optical sights I have run into several offers where the items for sale were very good reproductions. As long as they are advertised as such (i.e. G43 Durofol hand guard repros) I have no problems. But look at all the MP44 spares coming out of Bulgaria. How many fxo marked spare extractors did Haenel make, how many gas tubes and how many ejectors? And why did they all end up in Bulgaria, of all places? Oh, they got them from East Germany, sure. And why don't these "East German" selector switches fit an original MP44 without additional work?

Are there fakers in the U.S.? Sure, just take a look at the the Gunbroker sellers exposed by ww2weaponsforum. But most of them lack the finesse of Eastern European workmanship. The SS marked rifles by Drago not only look hideous, they look stupid and make the person buying Drago's junk look stupid, too.
 
Here’s my fake. Looks oddly familiar to the above mentioned scope except on a wartime zf4.
 

Attachments

  • DF5400C4-CD6E-4DB7-AB82-2D90A362AA3C.jpeg
    DF5400C4-CD6E-4DB7-AB82-2D90A362AA3C.jpeg
    106.4 KB · Views: 37
It has a standard 800 meter dial. Bought this from a Czech seller too.. spent $800 on it though. Guess I thought it just looked cool.
 

Military Rifle Journal
Back
Top