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Waffenstad, Shul KKW Mongrel?????

LDHare

Member
There have been a few interesting German, mongrel training rifles posted on this forum recently, so let me add another from my collection.
I acquired this Waffenstadt Suhl, DSM34/KKW/??? mongrel about 20 years ago. Long before Jon Speed published his book on "Mauser Smallbore sporting, target and training rifles”, and obviously, before Simpson & Company’s fine recently published tome on the subject of German training rifles. At the time of purchase, there were only a limited number of serious collectors, such as many on this forum, that recognized the difference between the DSM34 pattern training rifles and the later KKW pattern who may have been tempted to fake a KKW for a significant increase in value for sale. There was also no internet, so the benefit of faking a KKW from a DSM34 was negligible at the time.
That said, my example of an all numbers matching, Waffenstadt Shul, high S/N (10806) training rifle, apparently a very late production rifle that shows all the characteristics of a DSM34 pattern training rifle with the exception of the upper K98 styled barrel band with its integral bayonet lug. The stock looks original to the rifle, however, I have not had the barreled action out of it to check for any evidence of post manufacturing replacement or modifications. It also has the German Veterans Association, SOLD.BD marking on the left side of the bolt take-down disc as is correct for this rifle according to the new Simpson & Co. reference tome.

Do any here have an idea as to how this may have come about?

Here are a few photos of my mongrel:

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The above is a comparison between my Waffenstadt - Suhl mongrel (above) and my Gustloff KKW (below)
 
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Shame that a less common receiver marking variation was altered as I don't see that many SUHL receiver markings without a date. Nice looking presentation and I would be too curious to not take the rifle apart. I look forward to hearing what others think of the rifle.
 
The high serial number on my Waffenstadt rifle is very high, somewhat higher than the highest example in the Simpson book, together with the undated receiver logo. This may place it's actual manufacture sometime around 1937, or so. Perhaps it was a sales promotion rifle to convince the authorities to include the Suhl consortium in the KKW production group. Just a thought now:)
 
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Other than the front bayo lug, nothing else hints of KKW... So I'd call it a DSM with bayo lug. IIRC, Jon Speed showed a Mauser DSM with a lug.

I think moving the needle of understanding on this one requires a look under the hood, to see about that front lug/ etc.... and that stock is pretty gorgeous :hail:
 
Not the first I have seen with bayonet lug added. This lug is off a Argentinian 1909 with the added hole for the bayonet adapter they used. IMHO

not some missing link rifle im afraid. I have a WSS Suhl with the Sold BD mark as well..
 
I have a rifle that has the serial number 1,600 before yours with a 1935 dated receiver marking. I guess they went back to not putting the date on the receiver. Another variation I will have to look for🙂. I am still looking for a 1934 dated receiver marking.
 
Beautiful wood! That is the highest serial number I have recorded for a DSM from this consortium. The barrel was finished by Rempt and the Kelber boys, and this comes from a large order that was sold to the Soldaten Bund just as this consortium was disbanding in 1936 and moving on to military contracts either individually or in other consortia. The last ones they made had no year marking added to the receivers. As Bob says, it really begs for disassembly for an inspection out of the wood. Haenel was not only the assembly/distribution point for this group, but also seems to have manufactured most or all of the stock sets. The stocks often have a "CGH" stamped in them, and typically are pencil-numbered (stock and handguard numbered to each other, but NOT to the rifle).
You don't mention if it is duffle-cut or not, but the wood grain (at least in the photo) appears to indicate the fore end matches the rest of the stock body? Cut or not, the bayonet lug was certainly put on it after it left Haenel. No telling when, or by whom. Anyway, I wouldn't call it a mongrel by any means -- it's a lovely example. Every one of them has a story to tell, and many thanks for sharing the photos!

Steve
 
First off, I love my canine mongrels. I've enjoyed the companionship of many mongrels over the years. Actually I am a mongrel and proud of it. I've also found canine mongrels to be far healthier, smarter, examples of the canine genera than the pure breeds IMHO. They're exotic and each is unique unlike the pure breed clones:)

OK, back to the subject at hand:) I disassembled my Waffenstadt DSM34 "mongrel trainer" this am and discovered several interesting things:

+ 1. The stock has not been subject to a duffle bag cut.
+ 2. The stock and handguard is numbered, but does not match the serial number of the rifle as it should.
- 3. The front of the stock has been cut back to accept a H upper barrel band and what appears to be an Argentine Mdl 1909 Mauser bayonet lug as Mauser99 had opined above. Very good catch.

I strongly suspect that this rifle was modified here in the states prior my my acquiring it 20 years ago. Such is life;-( It's still a very nice rifle IMO and worth what I paid for it those many years ago.

I wish to thank you all for your vast knowledge and kind assistance with examining this curiousity.

Here are some additional photos for your review:

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The numbers on the wood will only match themselves and not the metal as Luftmaker stated. Other than the added bayonet lug the rifle looks textbook to me.
 
Yep. C. G. Haenel in the barrel channel, Sauer receiver, lovely piece of wood not numbered to the rifle, and I'm sure you are right about the source of the bayonet lug. Beautiful example.

And by the way, I'm sure not denigrating the term "mongrel" as applied to dogs. I adopt mixed breeds from shelters (I call them "Heinz" dogs -- 57 varieties) and wish more people would. Good for you on both counts.

Steve

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I'm a bit surprised at just how easy it was to convert this rifle's stock to a pseudo KKW configuration. Now we have the internet/forums and some excellent reference books, such as the fine Simpson German Training Rifle masterpiece, so this situtation is much more obvious now than it was in the mid '90s.
 
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That's a beautiful rifle IMHO, regardless if the front was altered for a bayo lug or not. Beautiful piece of lumber... one of the nicest I've seen. :thumbsup:
 
Thank you Heavy Mech for the nice compliment on my Waffenstadt DSM34 Mod 1 rifle:)

We all can't be perfect, but we can be interesting. I think I got this phrase from the Canadian Red Green TV show.
 
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